V2K,

I'll concede that point.

More guitarists = More demand for the (now) limited supply of vintage guitars.

But, WHY do so many guitarists demand vintage American gear? What is the appeal, to them? Is it that it's American and they are just being patriotic? Is it that even the (then) inexpensive Fender guitars are still immensely better quality than the new, foreign-made facsimiles? What is it that all those guitarists demand when it comes to vintage guitars that the foreign-made versions can't ever seem to get right?

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: There IS a certain something that vintage American-made musical instruments have inherent to them -just because they were built the way they were built when they were built.

Let me pose another dilemma:

I concede the point that supply and demand and more guitarists, etc. But tell me how those limited-supply guitars can garner as much of an increase that they do -to the point of the absurd(?). Even a Gretsch Caddy Green WITH K Zildjians and gold plated hardware can't bring anywhere near the 800K that a 59 Gibson LP sunburst garners. I have only heard of ONE of those kits -EVER. Surely, there must have been more 59 LP sunbursts than that?

i work in a used music store. and i get these guys that come in all the time and they say what's that strat? and i might say "that's a Japanese 54" reissue..it's got a killer neck" but as soon as i get "***.." out of my mouth their face drops and they wont even look at it if its not american.

guitars are not like drums. although the aged wood could bring you the best sound/tone ever..new guitars are made 10x better than the way they used to make them. the way one of my friends put it "why would i wanna stand in front of my amp with a vintage strat and get all this hiss/noise/feedback..when i can get a new strat with "noiseless" pickups in them?"

but of course once again..its in the eyes of the beholder. to tell you the truth i think most of it comes from it just being "vintage" let alone american.

this one regular that comes into my work has a 61' fender jazz bass. the case alone for that thing is worth like a grand. the original strap from back then is worth a few hundred..and what does he think of this? (he's the original owner) he thinks its hysterical that people would pay soo much money for something that he got brand new for $200 back in the day.

another gentlemens perspective is that the old fenders (like: jaguars/mustangs/jazzmasters/duo-sonic/musicmasters/bullets/etc.) were ****! he cannot believe that a guitar like that is worth soo much nor can he believe what the re-issues go for.

its because the world just loves repeating history. case and point.

for me its all about the sound and always has been. why did i go to vintage? why did i sell my new Luddys and my Sabian Vaults and my DW 9000 hardware? because i love the way vintage drums sound/look/play/etc!

it all started with a 1957 WFL Superclassic i heard..it came into my store and i played it..and i literally didn't want to put it down. (of course i bought it) and with cymbals it was a 24" pre-serial 602 my uncle had. i never wanted to play another ride and i'm still on my own quest for one!

the one thing these companies cannot recreate is the aged wood/metal/what-have-you and if they do one day..then "vintage" anything as we know it will simply disappear.

flower

Incredible! I just don't understand that! It would seem that SOMEONE would want to have that drum set! Didn't someone recently pay a TON of money for Neil Peart's "2112" kit? And if memory serves me, that kit was kind of rough. It had a mixture of hardware and the heads were torn in spots and they looked kinda scratched up and stuff.

And, another point: With all the cheap and easily available drum sets there are today, in comparison to what there used to be (even in the heyday) in the 60's, I would prognosticate that one day certain vintage drums and drums sets will follow suit in terms of value. maybe they are slower to catch up to the guitar craze, but I really think things are going to change for vintage drums' values one day.

If only all drum kits could appreciate like Gretsch bop kits have appreciated! x-mas3

absolutely.

i mean with this "recession" look how different they already are..

i had a guy basically screaming at me because i offered him a grand for his 3-piece vistalites. ranting and raving about what they "used" to go for.

well get with the times brother! i always say..if you're not prepared to take a hit..you might as well hold on to your stuff.

think about turkish K's..i had a great conversation with a vintage drum collector who had over 22 sets and close to 200 cymbals and he was around "back in the day" and he said that the K's would come with a drumset and the first thing people would do was go sell them so they could get some A's cause that's what everybody was playing. (RE: Buddy Rich)

i mean if they only knew!

Excellent post. Thanks for your insights.

That's true, too, but I'll tell ya....I have seen/heard a few K's in my time.... When you got a good one, it was usually a great one. However, there were also plenty of bad old K's. When the A's came out, it was kind of an "answer" to the complaints of inconsistent K's. That's why drummers loved the A's. The A's were much more consistent. They sounded brighter and "livelier" too.

But, in retrospect, the K's are seen as "handmade" and "unique" whereas the A's have become so ubiquitous, they are just....common.

The perceived "need" for things changes over time. Now, everyone wants old K's whether they sound good or not. Someone might have an old 20" K that weighs 1600 grams but sounds like aluminum foil! But what difference will it make if it's a thin, old K? Mind Blowi But, what about that new A. that sounds great???? -meh Mister T

I think the same think may hold true for certain old drums and kits, too....one day!

I realize this point will be lost on some, but there are those of you that will get it ... Large collections!

It is much much much easier to collect guitars from a practical stance. The storage factor is almost nil. You can frame one and hang it on the wall. THAT opens up the field to non-musicians ... Like traders, lawyers, doctors, CEO's, and others with liquid funds and fond memories of concerts and heroes during their youth. The GAME is opened up to WAY more people than just guitarists. I live in HSV. It is the largest gated community in the country where LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of retired biggies have settled. The collections are intense; musicians and non. You would be surprised at just how many guitars you can hang on the walls of a multi-1000 square foot house.

That factor has kept the drums out of the picture, for the most part. Just one more piece to the puzzle.

Excellent point!

*EDIT* (I would like to add....)

While in a practical sense, collecting the much more ergonomic-sized guitar is more space-friendly, I think it has to be the desire to be in the presence of the lovable things that really drives collectors. I like guitars, too, but I don't LUV 'em! I'm a drummer, so I want to be around drums, be they practical or not.

Have you seen any of the pictures that Mike Curotto has posted of the interior of his home? His collection is everywhere! God bless his wife! And his collection is just snare drums (also quite space-friendly, btw). But even friendly-sized collectible objects, like snare drums and/or cymbals, can accumulate quickly if you collect long enough and are tenacious enough.

I attend garage sales, estate sales and auctions all year 'round. When I see drums, my body just moves to them like a magnet. Most of the time, they end up being some kind of "First Act" drum kit that's easy to avoid. And I know that the sources from which I occasionally find drums, have NO interest in hanging onto them. Many times, if they don't get sold, they go to the dump. But I also go into these places with a "budget" on the garage sale scale of budgets! So, I can't rescue them all! ;)

I'm curious as to what happens to an $800K Les Paul AFTER it's purchased. How is that kind of instrument enjoyed, subsequently, I wonder? Would it be a situation of displaying it in a museum or would it actually ever be played? Because once something establishes that kind of value, it becomes something other than what it started out as!

Let me preface this by saying this is only my opinion and is based on my observations as a drummer/guitar player and classified scourer. Just my .02 cents...

As vintagemoore2000 mentioned supply has a lot to do with it. To expand on his point further, the real reason a late '57 - '60 Les Paul command the big bucks and are so desireable is due mainly to the players who coveted them. Clapton, Page, Beck, Mike Bloomfield, Billy Gibbons even Kieth Richards are known for playing late '50s lesters. But when they bought them they were just "used" guitars. So if your guitar hero plays or played an original 57 - 60 les paul and there are only a handful of them available, the price is going to go up...way up. Same for late '50s - early '70s strats (SRV, Beck, Clapton, Hendrix) and even some of the late '70s early '80s "super strats" (charvel, jackson). Even not so vintage guitars command a high price due to limited supply and associated player ('90s Ernie Ball Van Halen Signature Guitars).

So why do vintage drums typically not command the same kind of prices? Some sorta do but not on the same scale. First, drum construction, design and quality didn't really change all that much during the same era. As long it's a 3-ply Ludwig kit in the desired sizes for instance, they are pretty much the same. When the late '50s les pauls were discontinued that was it until the "good" reissues and "historics" started being built again in the '90s. Not to mention, the original paf pick ups, type of caps used in the wiring etc. They just don't make them like that anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the drums that do command the big bucks either have a very rare color/wrap, configuration or combination of both or an association with a specific drummer (Krupa, Rich, Ringo, Bonham, Peart). I'm into Bonham stuff and I know from experience that the rare stuff can bring some money but certainly not on the same level as a late '50s Les Paul. Maybe it should or will one day. I've personally never seen an "original" 1970 green sparkle kit in the bonham config but If there is another out there it would be one of only a handful and should bring major $$

My final thought on the subject is that the vintage drum market is still in it's infantcy. Alot of drummers don't want "old" drums, they want the latest and greatest in birch shelled drum technology or whatever. That's fine with me :)

Oh, as far as legacy kits selling for what they do, it's because that's what people are willing to pay for them. Ludwig is cashing in on the custom aspect as well as the vintage 3-ply shell. Right now, they are the only one's that have them (And despite what people keep trying to tell me, Keller does not make a 3-ply maple/poplar/maple shell with re-rings...Prove me wrong, please!! If they do I want some). I am praying that Ludwig introduces an import version of the legacy shell, as sacreligious as that may be!!!

I agree with you for the most part.

There were variations of the 3-ply shells, though. So, that kind of equates to the variations seen in the guitar world.

And I agree that it's totally fine if the trend, now, is that drummers prefer new gear. :) ;)

The difference is that one day the new stuff of this era will get old, but when it does, there will be no quirks to any of it. It will have been made by robots and other computer aided machines. There will be no rich history connected to any of it. The drums of today will age and just get.....old. Vintage drums and especially vintage American-made drums are not just drums, they are part of a history in the evolution of music. They established the blueprint from which everyone else made copies.

Speaking of history, it should be noted that the guitar is also a much older instrument than the drum set. The hand drum, of course, is by far the oldest "outboard" instrument of all -caveman old. But the drum set, is only a little over 100 years old. Compare that to the guitar or violin world! Even the techniques for playing the drum set are still evolving. There is really no "classical" drum set playing technique for that matter.

Great point about the newer Eddie Van Halen guitars and the value-status that ANY guitar has when it's connected to an iconic player. I really never even considered that before. I just hope it doesn't mean that one day people will start to collect accurate versions of Terry Bozzio's DW monster kits just because Terry is an iconic drummer, now (well, at least to a lot of people he is). Falling Do