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Vintage cymbal education...

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A little background - I'm a multi instrumentalist songwriter with a studio, who has been focusing on drums as of the last few months. I've bought the stick control book, joined a band, and really been working at it. I've improved into 100X the drummer I was a few months ago. But now my cymbals are starting to bother me a bit...

I use more traditional miking techniques (usually glyn johns style, with snare and kick mics added in - 2xu87 clones I built along with an AKG D19 on snare and another LDC on kick, sometimes with a ribbon in the room depending on the track) and have a 1961 20x14, 13x9, 16x16 Ludwig kit, with a 60's 18" crash (1650 grams) a K constantinople 20" ride (2400 grams), and 14 hats (1300 and 850). I just bought and received (both 60's zildjian Avedis) 20 inch 2000 gram ride, and also a 18 1425 gram crash.

My K sounds really nice - BUT it has more ping than I would like, and needs more volume to get to a wash sound than I typically play in the studio. I've noticed that live the ping/wash situation helps me have enough headroom on the cymbal to play dynamically.

This is why I bought the 400g lighter ride. This lighter ride washes great - but has little to no stick definition and is basically too far in the other direction. I did use this one on a loud rock song and it worked great as a very washy ride (https://soundcloud.com/rockinrob86/live-for-the-now)

- so maybe that's what this one's for, and it will never be a "main" ride? I don't usually play loud rock though. My other stuff is typically more in the beatles/neil young/60's-70's sound territory.

I have other recordings here https://soundcloud.com/rockinrob86 where the drummer I've been playing with is using his stuff. I think he uses dream cymbals, and they sound good, but I would like to stick with 50's/60's zildjians. All the records I want to sound like were made in that era with those cymbals.

All of this is to say, is there any way to learn how to predict what a cymbal will sound like other than buying a bunch of cymbals? I know the bell size, the curve/radius or lack therof, weight, etc all change the sound, but I haven't seen a definitive description of how these affect cymbal tone.

I do not want a big collection of cymbals. I would like to have something like ringo's setup - two or three that are versatile and work reliably on a range of material.

Posted on 8 years ago
#1
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Very interesting question. It may be that you just jumped too far down the weight scale in going from 2400g to 2000g. It could be as simple as you need a 1960s Avedis Zildjian at around 2200g. But that's always an "other things being equal" statement, and other things are never really equal. *sigh*

I have gone the route of buying a bunch of cymbals in order to learn about the relationship between physical attributes and finished sonic characteristics, but I haven't been all that successful yet. I haven't even got a set of standardized terms to describe cymbal sounds in words which I'm entirely happy with. Nothing seems to describe the sound of a cymbal like actually listening to the cymbal. Some day I hope to be able to extend what's on my Avedis site by having audio examples which illustrate different cymbals, but that's a long way away.

Although I've said that words don't do it by themselves, there are some things you can read. Hugo Pinksterboer's The Cymbal Book is a start, although it is getting rather old. Another old source you may not have seen is a Zildjian SoundLab White Paper Number 1 you can download (a PDF) here:

http://goo.gl/Mcbfqn

and last but not least, I find the best informed discussion comes from talking with people who actually make cymbals for a living. They have a kind of "change the profile slightly and see what happens" knowledge which you just can't get from examining lots of finished cymbals. Here's some introductory reading on hammering and how it changes the sonic characteristics. There are even a few examples as sound files. Although it's oriented towards hammering, obviously there are mentions of shape and weight.

http://cymbalutopia.com/www.cymbalutopia.com/Hammering_101.html

http://cymbalutopia.com/www.cymbalutopia.com/Hammering_101_cont..html

There are a few people (and threads) who are all about Ringo's cymbal sounds. I'm more of a believer that it's the player not the cymbal, although there's no harm in trying to find cymbals which are like his -- except maybe harm to your wallet.

Good luck with your quest.

Posted on 8 years ago
#2
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Well Zen is no doubt, the distinguished authority, but there are a few things I can think of that I look for with regards to medium to light weight 20's and 22's that are fairly foolproof.

A small bell will focus the stick sound, tighten spread and push the wash to the background while often reducing volume. The extreme example being a flat ride.

A higher profile with raise the pitch of the stick sound and can give the wash a more aggressive character.

Added weight will also raise pitch, brighten the sound and improve projection, but can add unwanted overtones and clang while creating a harsh edge crash.

YMMV

Posted on 8 years ago
#3
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Nice summary Sinc.

I don't claim "distinguished authority" at all. I am but an interested student of cymbal science who happens to know some of the guys who actually know about this stuff because they make cymbals. I refer in particular to Matt Bettis, Matt Nolan, Craig Lauritsen, Paul Francis, et al.

Posted on 8 years ago
#4
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Thanks for the thoughts/help guys. Still looking out there!

After doing a little more looking, I'm wondering if maybe I should buy a medium 22 ride, keep my light 20 ride and my super light 1400 gram 18 crash. I love the 18 crash, and the light 20 has cool characteristics - bright crash, nice washy ride sounds - but it isn't going to work as my main ride.

Posted on 8 years ago
#5
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