Never even heard of them until now. But I'm impressed.

Is that extra 5% of tin the magic bullet?

Coffee Break2

That could be. That actually makes the bronze harder and sort of like Zildjian's "secret", but that does it without the extra tin.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/kzildjianhistorical/websize/CuSn.jpg[/img]

That could be. That actually makes the bronze harder and sort of like Zildjian's "secret", but that does it without the extra tin.

The higher tine formula puts the melt on the edge of the "beta phase" in this phase diagram. By some accounts, that's the "sweet spot" that you want to get to for cymbals. But that hasn't been substantiated yet.

The higher tin formula puts the melt on the edge of the "beta phase" in this phase diagram shown where the two black arrows intersect. By some accounts, that's the "sweet spot" that one wants get to for making the best cymbals. But that hasn't been substantiated yet. It's just a theory from a certain Turkish cymbal maker/researcher who's become obsessed with finding "the formula".

Does anyone actually know the tin content of old K.Zildjians? Would you have to melt one down to do the analysis?

"The cymbals display a vintage-antique appearance after having undergone

a special maturation and coating process. This also provides superior stick

definition and eliminates unnecessary overtones and a long sustain."

V-Classic Cymbals

"All V-Classic cymbals are made of cast B25 bronze (25 percent tin and 75 percent copper) and feature a unique finish that gives them an aged look with a noticeable patina. The surface of each cymbal also appears to have been smoothed out a bit with a light sanding process. (You can see slight circular markings emanating from the bell.) "

Modern Drummer

FYI

You wouldn't actually need to melt an entire cymbal for that. Only a small piece would be sufficient for a complete quantitative analysis. But I know that many attempts have been made to find out just what if anything was unique about the Zildjian alloy as far as composition was concerned, and nobody reported that it was made of anything other than just straight up B-20. This caused those who sought to copy that formulation to have fits. But something about the treatment of the alloy itself during the mixing and melting process is what's supossed to be unique and responsible for the superior qualities of Zildjian bronze, and not the composition. Aram was went to great lengths make sure that there were no variables that were introduced into that process. He wanted everything to be just exactly as it was when he was making cymbals back at the old Istanbul foundry; even going so far as to actually import Turkish coal to fire the furnace, which incurred substantial extra cost to Zildjian at the time. He even insisted that the foundry itself should be located near a large body of salt water just as it was back at the old Istanbul foundry. So that's why they picked North Quincy.

In Quincy you can bring coal to the dock from blue water !!

The very last poriton of this statement. He insisted it be near a large body of salt water. Is anyone elses Spidey sense tingling? I certainly don't purport to be some jamoke who thinks he figured out the "secret" based on a forum thread, but that certainly is VERY interesting, to say the least....No? Maybe they dump salt water in there somehow or use salt water to quench the alloy at some point or something and that does something differently that fresh water?? Who knows I guess, I just thought that was a peculiar insistance..... Maybe the ones on the quest to find this Holy Grail of a formula/process are looking at it from a wrong angle?

Toodles

Drumhack Sumo DudeCool1guitar2Eye Ballguitar3

In fact salt water was used to quench the alloy. And Mehmet and Agop's first job assignment at K. Zildjian was to work as "water boys".

And that's another good reason for the location. However after Aram left, Zildjian quietly switched over to domestic coal sources. Aram probably would have thrown a fit if he'd known.