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The Devil's Advocate

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I understand all too well what has happened, over and over again, to American Institutions, yet we as American fault the Japanese for "killing" our auto business....NO, they did not kill it, the Americans shot themselves in the foot by building crap. I don't care how you stack it up, I will only buy something that is a value. There is a difference, when you are talking price and quality and value. For $20,000, I am not going to buy a car that is a throw away, when for that same hard earned money, I can buy a quality built vehicle, that is built here, by American workers (2004 Nissan Titan), and will outlast its' counterpart, with fewer mechanical problems. I will not support the labor unoins, and their agenda of theft. When the labor unions get involved, they tell the workers it is OK to build crap, because they will protect the worker, and then the worst of them do exactly that, and what do we get? In the 80s, early 80s especially, we built absolute garbage. Why, in my right mind, would I buy it? When for the same money, I could buy something that lasts as thrice long for the same money? Or less? At this point, it is more about my pocketbook than that of the American producers who value profit over value. An American auto from the 80s is where? In the junkyard. As much as I despise them, many Hondas from the same time are still on the road. And Toyotas and Nissans. And they built far fewer autos than we did.

The same is not exactly true of the drum industry. It became overwhelmed in the 60s, and in a move to fill two markets, the Japanese capitalized. They filled a need for lower line drums, and because of this, so many of today's drummers are well, drummers. And then they also took a minor share of the middle market. Many people want to say the Japanese took the market away. They did not, American makers could not keep up with demand, nor were they interested in a lower end market, so there was plenty of business for all. Then the American investment engine saw an opportunity to capitalize on the music industry, and CBS geared up to start buying everything music in a bid to increase the bottom line. It was at this point that the quality fell through the floor. So, once again, there was a market that yearned for higher quality, and since we were concentrating on the greed of a nation in search of more money, they capitalized, again.

Now I ask you this. Would you rather there be no drummers from the 80s forth? And as so many have stated, Why would you want an American set of drums from the 80s, 90s, and newer? No one wants them, so what difference does it make? The Japanese are not at fault, we are. It is our greed that caused the industry to fall apart. If the Japanese had not come in, Ludwig was not about to increase quality, nor was Gretsch, or Rogers, no one....Can't you all see, this has nothing to do with the Japanese, it has everything to do with America's desire to maximize profit. We take the best and simplest ideas, then strip it down to the absolute bottom dollar, make a great product of the cheapest material available and over-hype it with slick advertising and then sell it, to hell with quality. It's all about if the INVESTOR is happy, not the consumer. So as long as Wall Street is cool with it, to hell with Main Street. Ludwig is but a ghost of it's former self, and at one time they ruled the drum market.

Pearl, TAMA and Yamaha build, and have continued unwaveringly to build, three levels of product. And they have for many yhears, and we buy all three levels because we know if we buy the top of the pile, they are going to be good. If we buy the bottom, we know they are going to be....good, a value for the money. Ludwig, we don't know because we can't keep up with this weeks supplier. We, as American's, don't know who our American company is going to use next week to sell us what makes the most money for the INVESTOR.

Look, all three of the major Japanese companies have survived because they are consistent. In the auto industry and the drum industry.

I am only playing the Devil's Advocate here. Trust me, If I knew that I could buy everything from an American producer, and it would be a VALUE to me, I would without question buy all American. However, because we, as Americans, seem to care more about profit than quality. And keeping our own workers employed in full time, well paying jobs, without the threat of some union boss telling us we can produce as much crap as we want because if manangement says one word, well by God, we'll show him, we'll strike!

It is a vicious circle. And it all circles around one thing...corporate greed.

I have one question for all of you:

If the Japanese had not stepped in during the 60s, where would you have gotten your first drum set?

There would not have been many available for your parents to purchase because the music industry would have bought every drum set they could get there hands on. They would have done this because there was not enough production capacity to satisfy the demand. It is because the MIJ exists that many of you are drummers today, and are able to collect vintage American drums. Your parents chose to buy you a drum set only because the MIJ set at Sears was $125.00, instead of $650.00. That is all there is to it, whether you like it, or want to admit or not. And I like them because they are fun, they are cheap, and they have a great sound. No, they are not the same quality, they do not have the same sound, but they have as much character, and they do sound wonderful. The only reason they sound good today is because of the advances in heads? Not entirely. Some of us actually know a thing or two about sound waves and engineering, and wood working to do the job. And I can buy a complete kit, in good condition, for way less than a set of Ludwigs. Make no mistake, Ludwig killed Ludwig, not Pearl. Pearl got you behind your first drum set.

"Ignorance may be overcome through education. Stupidity, however, is a lifelong endeavor." So, educate me, I don't likes bein' ignant...
"I enjoy restoring 60s Japanese "stencil" drums...I can actually afford them..."I rescue the worst of the old valueless drums for disadvantaged Children and gladly accept donations of parts, pieces and orphans, No cockroaches, please...
http://www.youtube.com/user/karstenboy
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Coffee...16613138379603
Posted on 14 years ago
#1
Posts: 3972 Threads: 180
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Well.....that's an interesting read. Some good, some off base...by my take.

My first kit was a Red Sparkle Ludwig SuperClassic...WAY back when. I was a tiny tiny tiny little thing (two) and my parents surprised me with it. I've owned a few kits since then (honestly more than I can recall). I didn't purchase an MIJ kit until the late 80's. It was a custom ordered Tama monster kit and it traveled on a very slow boat from Japan to my house. I thought it would never get here. I've always known American or European drums until that time. I was married and traded in my Premier double bass kit in on that Tama.

Sorry. I just didn't have the childhood you describe.

I do, however agree with your take on those companies bringing themselves down. But, you really can't remove a major variable from that equation. The influx of less expensive drums from Europe and Asia DID impact the manufacturing decisions of those companies. Some good...some bad. Any attempt to moderate or to take a revisionist approach to history will surely produce tainted and off level conclusions.

All factors must be considered when reviewing this. The influx of those drums was a MAJOR factor and had a huge impact on many many many decisions and directions those companies took. The roads were mapped with that as a force.

Yes, some of those decisions were bad, which helped to usher in failure. But, one cannot lose sight of the fact that those decisions had to be made in the first place. All the variables must remain on the table for this discussion to have relevance and credence.

Otherwise, pretty cool writeup.

Posted on 14 years ago
#2
Posts: 2433 Threads: 483
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KissIf only Yamaha built cars!!

Hit like you mean it!!
Posted on 14 years ago
#3
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I only have one word in response to the USA building crap car products comment and the japanese build great cars comment: TOYOTA

If you've read the news for the past year, you know what I mean when I say TOYOTA.

I'll stick with my Dodge and my Ludwigs thank you.

Posted on 14 years ago
#4
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And in response to the comment about the American drum manufacturers not catering to the entrylevel or cheaper market....two words: Ludwig Standard.

Two more words: Ludwig Rocker......and I'm talking the USA made ones from the 1980's. They were well made, reasonably priced (comparable to any entry level Pearl, or Tama kit) and sounded far better than their contemporaries.

Posted on 14 years ago
#5
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I still maintain that protectionism was also a major cause of the demise of many US manufacturers. During the 70's, import duties were levied as a means of protecting American auto manufacturers and other companies, which were beginning the decline described by jonnistix. Sure, until that time cars were not designed and built for 100k plus miles, but most were fairly reliable and cheap to repair. Japanese cars of that era were spartan, but reliable--and inexpensive.

Since the Japanese manufacturers were looking at higher retail prices for their lower quality drums and guitars, for example, they decided to go head to head in the higher end market. Quality and features increased. American companies floundered. Looking to the future, immediate large profits were not their main concern. Predatory pricing was a common practice for gaining market share for Japanese products. This bears out jonnistix' claim, but from a slightly different angle.

I now work for a company that sells Japanese made products that are designed for durability, offer pizazz that the customer seeks, more useful features and better performance than the competition offers, but at a reasonable price---when compared to competitors. The company is looking at the long term for success rather than immediate gain. Hey jonnistix, I helped amplify another of your points!

Japanese companies produce products for consumption in Japan in Japan. The Japanese government resists imports to protect their industry, but this doesn't lead to lower quality. Yes, they will buy high quality Western products, too. They build plants in places like Indonesia where labor and materials are cheap for their lower end exports to us. Say, like Yamaha, for example. They don't drive cars assembled in Mexico. We do---with American brand names on the grill, too.

The plus side may be that American made products will continue to improve in order to compete. It's a pity so many great drum companies are too far gone for that.

Posted on 14 years ago
#6
Posts: 2433 Threads: 483
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Yup...what he saidWalking

Hit like you mean it!!
Posted on 14 years ago
#7
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From Ludwig-dude

And in response to the comment about the American drum manufacturers not catering to the entrylevel or cheaper market....two words: Ludwig Standard. Two more words: Ludwig Rocker......and I'm talking the USA made ones from the 1980's. They were well made, reasonably priced (comparable to any entry level Pearl, or Tama kit) and sounded far better than their contemporaries.

L-D, I am not trashing anyone here, I am only trying to put it all in the proper perspective. And as Michael points ouit, some of my statements may very well be "off the mark" but I assure you, not by much. And the Standards and Rockers were admirable attempts, but they still did not go for the bottom of the market, the true beginner sets.

Most parents, no matter how you slice it, will go for the shiny new cheapest over the shiny new more expensive simply because of economics. They do not know, nor do they believe the salesmen, that they will never get the initial investment back. Most of these entry level sets sold today are a thorn in the side of many parents. They don't know anything about drums, or how they should sound, and the kid beats the hell out of the cheap heads, they sound like crap and when they tire of the off tone, and daddy finds out it will be another 150 to put quality heads on the set, refuses, then they end up in the attic or closet because he refuses to take 75 bucks for the drumset he paid 350 for 6 months ago. It is a vicious circle, then the kid sneaks them out one day and trades them for bag of smoke, and the Devil is re-born, and Rock-n-Roll music is the culprit....you see how it goes? If they would have done one of two things: Bought a better set, still made in China, or put new heads on them, the kid would be a rock star....

OK, so maybe not, but you see, it is not the Japanese, the Standards were still too pricey for many parents to swallow, so they chose the MIJ because it was just as nice looking, yet 50 to 100, or more, less than he would spend. I know you don't agree with this, but it is purely economics and they won out. I am not about to argue the merits of an MIJ sound over those of higher quality American kits, my point is pure and simple, it is always about one thing, money, the almighty determining factor in almost everything we do.

Let me now ask you this:

Let's say you see two COB Supras on the bay. One is pristine and has a BIN of $1000, the other has some pitting and flaking, but looks and sounds great but has a BIN of $250. Which one are you, as a player, gonna buy?

Please don't go off about the prices not being realistic, it is a comparison only.

"Ignorance may be overcome through education. Stupidity, however, is a lifelong endeavor." So, educate me, I don't likes bein' ignant...
"I enjoy restoring 60s Japanese "stencil" drums...I can actually afford them..."I rescue the worst of the old valueless drums for disadvantaged Children and gladly accept donations of parts, pieces and orphans, No cockroaches, please...
http://www.youtube.com/user/karstenboy
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Coffee...16613138379603
Posted on 14 years ago
#8
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From jonnistix

Let's say you see two COB Supras on the bay. One is pristine and has a BIN of $1000, the other has some pitting and flaking, but looks and sounds great but has a BIN of $250. Which one are you, as a player, gonna buy? Please don't go off about the prices not being realistic, it is a comparison only.

Well....now I'm not trashing your post here, but the second scenario would never happen. COB Super-Ludwigs don't pit and flake chrome, only the ludalloy aluminum shell supraphonics from the 70's do.......and as a player...I wouldn't buy either vintage snare. I'd go buy a NEW Ludwig COB supraphonic for about $425, and it will come with the same great sound AND a warranty. :D

Posted on 14 years ago
#9
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I drive Japanese cars and love the economy and reliability. I have played Japanese drums that sounded good. But......for character and "soul" I prefer European cars and American (and some German) drums. It is hard to quantify these qualities though. There is nothing at all wrong with high end Japanese products except that they lack personality. Does this make sense? I agree that American auto maker have only themselves to blame.

Posted on 14 years ago
#10
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