My two cents is the Jazz tie in. These were Paiste jazz cymbals, for the most part. They were not rock cymbals. They had that softness and easy-speak to them. Some were buttery. They phased this line for the big beat line, which is more rock oriented. Eventually, the 2002 came in to being.

Please understand, not all 600 series were soft. There were some heavier cymbals in there. But, these days they are remembered for jazz. Even Joe M. used them on Time Out.

Ok, I get that....the jazz tie in....but the K's were jazz orientated and so were the A's at first.....but most A's don't come anywhere near what the going prices for these 602s are going for, and only some of the K's are approaching or surpassing the 602's prices.....so what's the real reason?

It can't just be because Joe Morello used them on Take Five......I mean, if we use that theory, then the early A's used by the likes of Krupa, Rich, Bellson, etc. should be worth just as much!

BTW, they couldn't have been all that great, because not long after Take Five and the invention of the "space ride" aka flat ride, Morello switched to A's and endorsed them by 1960.

As a side note, I know that Paiste claims 2002's were also developed with jazz in mind, but I personally think they are too bright and harsh for jazz, proper. Fusion or electic jazz maybe, but not traditional acoustic jazz......

The key here is the "Paiste" name. It's pretty much the only jazz cymbals they made until the Traditional line. Some can refute this, but it's hard to argue the dark character of the 600 series when compared to any of the others until the Traditional line. That's really all it is. They are pretty good jazz cymbals. Prices are not all that bad, really. I've seen some twenties and eighteens go for just under 300. That's not too far out there considering the limited availability of them. Granted, there are those perfect specimens that go for more than that ... and the sharks that jack the prices WAY out of proportion, but overall I think they are within reason. Personally, I wouldn't jump on the 70s A bandwagon ... just don't like 'em. When the A's go back in time, though ... there was some craftsmanship in the 50s and part of the 60s. Those were pretty good cymbals and the prices reflect that. It would be odd to compare 70s A's with the Paiste 600 series when looking at price. You really would have to go back to the 50s and early 60s A's for comparison. Those are a bit more costly and do reflect the higher values that the Paiste's garner.

Oh no...I wasn't meaning to compare them with 70's A's or later....I agree with you there.....I was speaking of the A's from the 50's-60's before the A line went to full automatic production...pre-Norwell, or Quincy era if you will.

I simply just don't understand the premium prices being fetched on the 602's thats all. The good ones don't seem to sound all that much different from a nice old A or K to my ears. Funny sometimes what a name will do to the market on things like this.

my uncle has a 24" formula 602 (pre-serial#) ride.

prob the best ride i've ever played on.

it covers every single base and is so multi-dimensional.

the only way i would trade my A's is for a set of 602's.

Paiste's have a warm/glassy tone that Zildjian can only dream of!

Yes Sir

What is this premium price of which you speak? And for cymbals of which eras?

If you are talking 1950s - 1960s era for old Ks then they are much more expensive than 602s from the 1960s (pre serial period). There is a price premium for blue label Paiste 602s over pre serial ones, but now you are comparing quite different decades. Even then the old Ks are way more expensive -- way more than twice as expensive!

If you are talking 1950s A Zildjians then maybe there is a bit of difference. The 602s get around $200 for a 20". My impression is that 1950s A Zildjians are getting a little less, perhaps. But then we would have to start differentiating between several stamp periods in the 1950s. Trans stamps get a premium over others.

I would look at the difference in supply for part of that effect of 602 prices over A Zildjians. I suspect that Paiste didn't make as many 602s as A Zildjian made during those time periods. I suspect that a premium goes to 602s which are long out of production. In contrast A Zildjians have been in continuous production. As has been noted above, they vary a lot in production techniques over the decades, so to us they are very different beasts. But to the uninitiated they are all just A Zildjians. I guess it depends on who contributes most to setting the median market price: average consumers or collectors.

I haven't had a close look at A Zildjian 1950s prices, although I'm getting interested as I just bought one last week. Fairly dark and trashy, not at all like my pre serial 602.

Paiste 602 prices I know most about as I have been tracking them for coming up to 5 years now. A man's got to have a hobby.

Reference: Paiste 602 and Sound Creation Prices

http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?30271-New-Paiste-602-SC-value-rule-of-thumb

The full spreadsheet of Paiste data is available on request. I am usually a week or so behind in my data entry but I'm pretty good through mid November at the moment. The analysis I have linked to is, on the other hand, much older. I have yet to undertake an updated analysis. I've got a few other things on...

Nice collection of data there zenstat.

I've got a pair of 14" F602 Extra Heavy blue label hi-hats that have got maybe an hour's worth of stick time from when I got them about 25+ years ago. I was way too into the 2002 sound to give them any real chance and they have been hiding in a closet, a victim of buyers remorse, ever since (they define the term "mint condition"). Interesting to see what something like that would be worth.

It's also interesting to see how much "mystique" plays in driving up the value of these cymbals (or virtually any instrument). I'm definitely an antagonist of the theory that older is better just because it's older... more to the blanket statement/idea that there were craftsman present in the past and there aren't any now... or that today's methods of manufacturing are inferior to those of the past.

Joe Morello did not play 602s on "Take Five"; he played Avedis Zildjian cymbals. He moved from Zildjian to Paiste in the late 60s and is credited by Paiste as giving them the idea for the flat ride.

602s seldom sell for anywhere near current K Zildjian prices.

Curious how you know this.