From what I understand, they have not changed the bolt up pattern in years. Are you 100% sure that they are the classic series and not the similar (but different) Accent series lugs? Bolt hole spacing SHOULD be 2 3/16" center to center. I am speaking of the standard size classic lugs used on the 5x14 snares, not the taller ones used on the 6 1/2x14 snares.....also, are you 100% sure that the "beat up old vistalite" shell was actually a Ludwig vistalite shell, and not some other brand acrylic shell? (was the badge there and appear to be factory fit is what I'm getting at. If not, it is possible it could be an old Fibes shell, or Zickos...those used different hole patterns than Ludwig, hence the reason the classic lugs did not fit your shell)

My purchase DOES depend on the outcome of this discussion... [img]http://www.smiley-faces.org/smiley-faces/smiley-face-popcorn.gif[/img]

My brother is talking to his Ludwig rep tomorrow. The guy's been at Ludwig for 31yrs, so he should be pretty knowledgeable about this stuff and all.

My brother says he's heard more than once that they have NOS parts lying around with no new product to match them to, so the possibility of getting "original" Club Date lugs is not outside the realm of possibility.

We shall see.

Yeah, the 5 x 14 Vistalite shell was beat up, but definitely has a pointy B/O badge that has not been tampered with and 2 3/16" hole spacing. The new lugs have 2" spacing. The entire lug casing is 2 1/2" long. As you might see in the first photo, they look a bit fatter and taller than vintage lugs. I don't know what else to say, other than perhaps I have gotten myself into some knock-off Ludwig lugs? The feel and weight of them sure seem authentic.

Those look like the ones from the newer Accent series.....did you buy them at a store in packages or from another source already out of the packages? If they were packaged, the tag at the top should have been red & white with part #P2240F on it for the classic series lug. If not, you got hosed.....

Yep, hosed. But I don't think I paid an arm and a leg. Thanks, LD for the Accent lesson. I really didn't know anything about the Accent stuff before, only that it is the lower line. I don't really look at newer stuff that much in general. I'll find a use for them, maybe put them on some crazy MIJ shell, or resell them (but advertise as Accent lugs).

Fare thee well, and looking forward to seeing that completed CD kit.

Well, looks like it was all for nothing.

Ludwig is refusing to build the drum. They have the shells, they have the lugs. They will not combine them though.

The rep said they've been getting lots of requests for Club Dates and to expect something by the end of the year. I'm sure it'll end up being a cheaper shell with import bowtie lugs slapped on there.

Ludwig rant forthcoming...

I usually stay completely out of anything related to new drums, but I have to say...

...America used to have the best manufacturing quality in the world. Now, we sold all our manufacturing to China. Everything is now "spec'd". The story goes that China can make anything as good as the designer wants it and wants to spend on the manufacturing. And yet, NOTHING comes out of China that's nearly as good as what was made when America was doing its own thing. Instead of increasing the quality, Chinese made stuff incorporates the three B's = "Big, Bulky and Breakable"

There is no way that I know of to get old American quality from modern China. Even the rawest of the raw materials is substandard. The quality of the alloys is less....everything. The only thing that China can do as well or better than America ever could is to make massive amounts of "junk". No matter how well they paint it, polish it or hype it, drum products from China will ALWAYS be inferior to vintage American stuff. That's one big reason why there is such a renewed interest in trying to sell "vintage-STYLE" stuff. It's all hype based on the hope that someone will get it right....but, of course, no one ever has.

Anything related to drums that is being made in China is a complete and utter ripoff.

So, what can you do about it??? Save your money! NEVER buy anything Chinese-made. NEVER buy anything that includes ANY parts made in China. Buy ONLY vintage American drums. Buy them from American-owned "Mom & Pop" stores or from eBay or forum members, etc.

Don't be fooled into thinking that there are any American manufactured drums anymore. There are NONE! You HAVE to buy vintage stuff to get the old American-made quality. PERIOD

People may argue that old American stuff wasn't made with the highest QC, either....and yet, everyone wants to return to vintage-style stuff...but no one seems to have found a way to improve on it. Isn't that odd?

The Ludwig Legacy kits are a prime example. Ludwig as well as some other old vintage NAMES have been bought out, and "body snatched" -meaning that things resemble the old stuff...but something isn't quite right. And the thing that isn't quite right is the origin of the mindset that made America great -in essence, higher quality manufacturing with the thought of giving the citizens better quality products than could be gotten anyplace else. You can't get that mindset from China -ever.

Ludwig = Rudwig

Gretsch = Gletsch

Slingerland = Sringerand

Rogers = Logels

^^ da Big Fo'

/rant

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