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K Constantinople splash / crash anomaly?

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Hi all,

I've this nice 12"+ K Constantinople sizzle splash / crash.

Love the looks / hammering / patina.

Unfortunately some cracks around the bell and I doubt the sizzles are orignal. However it's a fun cymbal, with lots of "display quality".

I'm still wondering:

1) What type of stamp this cymbal has? And subsequently what its age is?

2) And if you guys also think the stamp is an anomaly? To me, the Zildjian "J" is mirrored. Is there a logical explanation for that?

Love to hear your thoughts.

Regards,

Wouter

[IMG]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12674658/SAM_4598-001_resized.jpg[/IMG]

Full size image: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12674658/SAM_4598-001.jpg

[IMG]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12674658/SAM_4600-001_resized.jpg[/IMG]

Full size image: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12674658/SAM_4600-001.jpg

[IMG]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12674658/SAM_4604_resized.jpg[/IMG]

Full size image: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12674658/SAM_4604.JPG

Posted on 10 years ago
#1
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Yes that is an anomaly. I've never seen that before, but I think there might be a logical explanation.

Firstly I had to do back through my archives to examine each and every Constantinople trademark in there so I could prove that this example is genuine, even though my gut already told me that it was, despite that flaw in the placement of the "J". Everything about your trademark checks out and with a high degree of accuracy so that I am 100% sure that its authentic.

After being convinced of that, I tried to see if I could find another of any type with a reversed "J" in it. I could not. But I did find one example of the exact type that you have. This type has two unique identifying features. It's one with an older type Arabic script but that isn't unique but only helps in dating. The unique parts are the tall lettering in "K. Zildjian & Cie." (in your case the "K" didn't print, but that's not too unusual), and the point in the "M" character in "Trade Mark", that doesn't reach all the way to the bottom of the lettering line, but terminates half way. Those 2 unique features only appear in yours and in others of that exact type such as this one that I present to you here on the left:

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/lizziesstuff/12%20Const%20TM.jpg[/img]

I have these stitched together as a pair because these were originally from a pair of 12" hi-hats that were foundry matched. And these were real "dance band" style hi-hats and not some marching band cymbals that were marketed as being hi-hats like you usually see on eBay. The left one checks out in every detail as being the same as yours.

My idea as to how this reversal may have occurred is that the dies for these could have been in the form of individual letters place in a block template. So it could be that just one letter could have been inadvertently reversed when the block template was first set up. But this is the only anomaly of this type that I've seen. So with your permission I'd like to use this one for the anomaly section that I have planned as part of a future web-site.

As for the dating, I would have to place this one in the early to mid 1930's period.

Anomalies such as these are what keep cymbal trademark analysts like me awake at night. But yours is certainly a one of a kind example so unique that I'm going to have to present it to the esteemed South Korean vintage cymbal scholar, Dr. Bong. His official title:

"Trademark Analyst Emeritus".

Posted on 10 years ago
#2
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Thanks for the clear and detailed response, Drumaholic!

Nice to hear that this keeps you awake! It did the same to me when I accidentally got it into my possession. Since then I was wondered on the reversed J, but I can only agree with you that the most logical explanation would be a mistake in the block template.

It goes without saying that you have permission to use this anomaly in your book / research / network. If that is how I can contribute to solve a part of the vintage drums / cymbals puzzle. If you need additional info on the cymbal or better / other pics, feel free to contact me. It's a keeper ;-)

Regards, Wouter

Posted on 10 years ago
#3
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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Wouldn`t a "j" key put into a stamp block have to be upside down if put in wrong ? If the "j" came out backwards it would need to be an inverted put the cymbal on the key hit the cymbal to stamp it on the bottom of the cymbal type "j" otherwise it wouldn`t be inverted to begin with.....

...Does that make sense ?

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 10 years ago
#4
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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The bell on that cymbal seems to have a steep side and a slope side.

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 10 years ago
#5
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@ Oddball, Indeed, you don't get a reversed "j" is the key is only rotated around its long axis. Apparently, the key must have had a j-relief at the top / not cymbal side. Placing the key the wrong way / up side down in the stamp block would then result in the reversed "j". But that's only speculation on how the key and stamps looked like.

To get it right: The bell has an even profile. I think by not shooting the picture completely perpendicular to the cymbal, this resulted in this fata morgana. But credits for your sharp eye

Posted on 10 years ago
#6
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From OddBall

Wouldn`t a "j" key put into a stamp block have to be upside down if put in wrong ? If the "j" came out backwards it would need to be an inverted put the cymbal on the key hit the cymbal to stamp it on the bottom of the cymbal type "j" otherwise it wouldn`t be inverted to begin with........Does that make sense ?

From wouter

@ Oddball, Indeed, you don't get a reversed "j" is the key is only rotated around its long axis. Apparently, the key must have had a j-relief at the top / not cymbal side. Placing the key the wrong way / up side down in the stamp block would then result in the reversed "j". But that's only speculation on how the key and stamps looked like.

Thank you for that, because if Oddball ever started making sense, that alone would be cause for great concern.

Posted on 10 years ago
#7
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Amazing cymbal. I love those old splashes.

Posted on 10 years ago
#8
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