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HELP is it an avedis pre new beat hi hat from early 60's??

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Hello there! This is my first post. I´ve just bought an avedis hi hat from the sixties. The seller (a friend of mine) says that the last owner sell them as pre new beat avedis from early 60´s but I can´t find any sign of it. In fact the hi hat seems to be the avedis new beat from the 70´s to me.

Here is a pic of the stamp and more photos. Hope you can help me. Best!!

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74921&stc=1&d=1409527977[/img]

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74922&stc=1&d=1409528232[/img]

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74928&stc=1&d=1409528232[/img]

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74929&stc=1&d=1409528232[/img]

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74930&stc=1&d=1409528232[/img]

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Posted on 10 years ago
#1
Posts: 6170 Threads: 255
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that does appear to be a 70's cymbal to me. no way to know if its a new beat if the ink stamp is gone.

mike

Posted on 10 years ago
#2
Guest
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Yes, I agree with Mike. That's what is called a 70s stamp, and the lathing fits that time as well. Did you buy a pair of hats? Or just the one?

Once the model ink is gone, weighing both the top and bottom is the next port of call for seeing if a pair of hats fits the New Beat weight ratio. I'm working up a history of New Beats and as part of that I've collected up weights. I've got about 40 pairs of weights so far, from different eras. I can tell you the grand average is

top 884g

bottom 1250g

and thus an average top to bottom ratio of 71%. So what are yours? If you tell us, I can make comment on whether they pass the weight test as likely or not. Nothing definitive of course. It's still early days in terms of evidence gathering.

Of course, if it is just a single hat then if it weighs in as a heavy one (1150g and up) then it could either be the bottom hat of a New Beat, or perhaps a marching cymbal. And that you cannot know if you only have the one and no ink. If it is lighter (like a New Beat top) at less than say 1000g, then we cannot know whether it started out life as a New Beat pair, or is just a hi hat from that time. The weights are in the same range for a top hat from a non New Beat pair or the top hat from an ordinary pair.

In addition to all the weights, I'm documenting all the different styles of model ink which have been used over the decades. I haven't got it all finished in HTML yet so the history and weights aren't yet up on my web site. But they will get there pretty soon.

The New Beat ink you are looking for may well be just on the underside of the bottom hat and not on the top at all. That's how they started out from 1963 onwards, and this ink style lasted well into the 70s:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/NewBeatBottom60s.jpg[/img]

Both word ordering, straight vs curved label, and location of model labels changed over the decades. But knowing they changed and knowing which year they changed in are two different things.

Posted on 10 years ago
#3
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Hey! Thank you for all your answers.

First I ask again. Are you completely sure that belongs to 70's? Any possibility to belong to 60's pre new beat?

Answering to your questions, yes I have the hi hat pair. These are the weights:

1177g

1290g

I have checked in the bottom of both cymbals and no signs of ink letters.

I am beginning to think that this hi hat is not a New Beat at all.

What do you think?

Best!

Posted on 10 years ago
#4
Guest
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Those weights are closer than you would expect for New Beats, with the top being about 90% of the bottom. The New Beat formula is light top over medium bottom, or in later decades medium top over heavy bottom. Two hats within 150g of one another is more of a "standard" hat ratio.

For example, I've recorded a pair of Medium hats (with the ink on them saying Medium which is how we know) which are 772 / 932 g. Those are 60s, and the general observation is that both tops and bottoms got heavier in the 70s. I believe that the pairings were chosen at the factory by sound not weighing them on a scale. So there can be lots of natural variation. But your pair fits better with "standard" hats. Or another possibility is somebody paired up two New Beat bottoms (long after they left the factory). We can't rule that out either once the ink is gone.

On the balance of probabilities I'd say those are not New Beats in the strict sense. But really the important thing is how they sound to you.

You can follow up why we think that is a 70s stamp here:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#70s

Note that this is a very preliminary version and I'm still in the middle of rewrites and reorganization and fact checking. One of the things I added last night (which may not be in the online version yet) is a reminder that the stamps didn't change like clockwork on the 31st of December 1960. But that stamp certainly fits all the criteria for being what Bill Hartrick calls a 70s stamp. At least that's what it looks like to me.

Posted on 10 years ago
#5
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My understanding is that the weight ratio for New Beats is 2/3 - for example 800/1200. That being said - I have seen and heard some VERY good Vintage Zildjian HHs that are not New Beats (and I am not referring to thins either). Those weights you have there should not diminish the potential sound and how much you enjoy them!

I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 10 years ago
#6
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Thank you very much for all your answers. I am looking now for another pair of hi hat. The sound is too heavy for a new beat I need. Looking now for 50's pair. Thank you again!

Best,D

Posted on 10 years ago
#7
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