I'm curious, how many cymbals have you ever tried this on to base your opinion? I find that when I weld cymbals, heating them to melting point, the tension and sound is fine, my customers seem to agree as well.

I wonder if at the factory, if they have to stress relieve or retemper after hammering? I can't see them hammering the bronze in any state, other than annealed. I've watch some vids on youtube but there always seems to be parts missing about the cymbal crafting process...

None as my background in engineering and machining says its a bad idea.

I've worked with plenty of bronze however.

Im glad you've had good luck with it and commend your bravery at such work.

You can locally anneal brass/bronze and re-temper. This is what is done when repairing dents in horns. Let's be clear, tempering with cymbal materials is done through physical hammering/work hardening (spinning in the case of horn bells). It is not like steel, where tempering can be accomplished through various heat treating/quenching methods.

Locally annealling will change the temper in the material and will be difficult to return that localized portion to the exact temper it had beforehand...especially since you must be careful to hammer only that annealed area which is difficult to do.

I have no doubt that heavily hammered cymbals go through a series of annealling and retempering during the production process to avoid cracking and impart the desired final sound. However the final product is clearly at a certain level of temper through hammering...far from an annealed hardness. So the final process is hammering.

I have also removed dents in B8 using the wood form technique with good success. B20 is harder and crystal shape is different so it has propensity to crack if you whack it too hard.

Here's a nice analogy (that I can't take credit for) that might help understand what happens in brass/bronze materials throught the annealing/work hardening process....

Brass is an alloy with a molecular bonding of copper and zinc. Other alloys have similar

comparisons. The molecules of the alloy bond in a crystal structure that form a grain

pattern in the brass. Kind of like wood grain, but at a microscopic level. The crystals have

random shapes. Each crystal finds it's own space next to it's neighbor crystals in the

structure. When brass is formed or worked in a specific direction, the crystals start to

change shape and they start overlapping each other in the same direction that they are

worked..they start laying down. You think of them like Dominos standing up next to each

other. When the brass is worked, it is like the Dominos being knocked down..one against

the other. When it is all over..the entire row is laying down in the same direction. If the

brass is worked in a different direction, the brass crystals do not want to get up and the

brass may form cracks. It is like you take your hand and mess up the Dominos. When the brass is annealed, the crystals all get into their own space again..or the Dominos are

lined up again all standing upright. Excuse the analogy to Dominos, and brass crystals

are not as tidy looking as Dominos, but that is the best visual analogy.

NEVER EVER heat a cymbal. You will turn it into a pie plate. It'll sound worse than a brass cymbals.

The lid thing seems to have merit and if it worked for you great. At least it worked once. You don't seem overly impressed with the other one.

Hammering cymbals is a picky business. you really gotta know what your doing. Takes a long time to learn how much, how hard and where to hammer.

The "proper" way to do this is with a hammer with a completely smooth, rounded head and an anvil but you gotta be real careful and go real light at first.

I'm certainly no cymbalsmith but I am learning how to hammer.

you ruin alot of cymbals learning.

best of luck

Drumaholic once had a pic of a Zildjian cymbal being hammered, it looked alot like this, very close if I remember correctly.

Or maybe this one is closer,

Here is a really nifty 14" B8 pro medium hi hat I put some dent's into,lol, to get that" sound edge" style of bottom hat. I use this with my Marathon cast N12 alloy top hat. I love these hats, chik, volume, hi end cut and just enough low end wash to fill in the voids.... I do have a vid it's on my youtube channel.

[IMG]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/14pagan88/sabianxcelhat_zpseb593c2e.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/14pagan88/xcelhats_zpsa9ffc7cb.jpg[/IMG]

I have also hammered out small dents in B8 cymbals - Paiste 2002 and 505s, typically dents in the bell.

I don't know how people make those dents - presumably by losing stands on them?

Anyway, I use a small roundheaded hammer in hard plastic, working from the edges of the dent towards the centre.

I haven't really noted any difference in sound - and neither have I experienced cracks developing.

Jon