Fascinating, I'd like to know more about your findings of the dating of these cymbals!

Gary

There's a few things that caused to make this major timeline adjustment for this trademark.

The first is the hammering. The hammering on this cymbal appears on the underside, which was not done past the early 1960's period. This hammering is not very apparent due to the thinness of this cymbal, but it's a little more obvious in the photo shown below.

The second indicator is the bell shape which in this cymbal is a match for the larger bell sizes from that period. This cymbal being a crash-ride got that larger bell size. But its the shape and not the size which is the determining factor here.

Third is the presence of a foundry artifact:

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/PICT3939.JPG[/img]

These artifacts are usually found on cymbals throughout the 1950's mostly. A few can still be found on some cymbals in the early 1960's, but never I can't remember any examples that I've seen any later that that. The true nature of these is still unknown, but I'm only noting these artifacts as an age indicator.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/PICT3927.JPG[/img]

Thirdly it makes logical sense that they should have been using this old type A. Zildjian & Cie. trademark as far back as this. Zildjian claimed rights to this trademark in the late 1950's. I can provide hard copy documentation to back this up. I also know that if a trademark is not used a period of a few years (not sure how many), then it becomes "dead". That is to say it the ownership becomes void and the owner can no longer be used it. Therefore is was mandatory that Zildjian use this trademark within a few years after claiming this ownership in order could continue using it. Without this the ownership rights could not have survived all the way into the late 1970's which is commonly recognized as a period in which it was later used.

I think they used this trademark on cymbals that were ordered with a brilliant finish during this early 60's and beyond for this purpose.

Very interesting, any stamp variations dicovered yet!!! I'll be keeping an eye out for these type of cymbals, maybe some hidden gems.

Gary

There's 2 types of these that I'll show you later. Most of these were fairly heavy as they gradually went on into the 70's. Thinner examples such as this one are relatively rare.

Here's the early type trademark:

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/trademarks/websize/Copy%20of%20zildj-1.JPG[/img]

And here's the later type, which is very similar in appearance to the K trademark used on EAK's, IAK's, and on later periods, the only difference being that the "K" is changed to an "A". It makes sense that these two tradermarks being so similar in appearance were probably first used together around the same time. That would be starting abound 1982 when the EAKs first were made.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/trademarks/websize/A%20Zildj%20and%20Cie..jpg[/img]

The top one looks like a late 60s stamp whereas the lower stamp looks like a late 70s stamp. Isn't it possible the cymbal was made then stamped just prior to shipping out, 10 or so years later?

I would say that's very doubtful. Zildjian is in the business of selling their cymbals. Therefore it would make sense only for them to make enough cymbals to allow for reasonable demand, and then to manufacture more as needed. They would certainly not be inclined to make such a large enough number of cymbals, especially in a newly introduced line, such that it would compel them to have them stored for an extended period as long as 10 years. That would just be bad business sense, and one thing that I know about Avedis III was that he was a very astute business man. But I will have some further information that supports my claim for earlier dates of manufacture that I will present shortly.

Here's something from Zildjian's catalogue circa 1977. It shows the older type A. Zildjian & Cie. trademark being used on their brilliant cymbals. So this at least proves what I had said earlier about this actually being the first one used. The 2nd one was definitely from the early 1980's.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/ebay/P1010447.JPG[/img]

Here's two important excerpts from the judgment decree concerning the lawsuit about trademark rights that became affective affective Jan. 17th 1958.

AVEDIS ZILDJIAN CO., Plaintiff-Appellant,

v.

The FRED GRETSCH MFG. CO., Defendant-Appellee.

No. 96.

Docket 24589.

United States Court of Appeals Second Circuit.

Argued December 3, 1957.

Decided January 17, 1958.

"Plaintiff was successful before the Commissioner of Patents in obtaining the cancellation of mark No. 228,592 ([color=red]"A. Zildjian & Cie de Constantinople"[/color] with an ornate device) on the grounds of abandonment."

"...defendant's mark No. 228,592 ("[color=red]A. Zildjian & Cie de Constantinople"[/color] with an ornate device) has been cancelled; and under the 1929 decree plaintiff may now use that mark."

This means that from this point on, Avedis Zildjian had the right to pick up the A. Zildjian&Cie. trademark. Furthermore in order to retain their rights to this trademark it was mandatory that Avedis Zildjian use it sometime within 3 years of gaining those rights in order to retain them. That would fix the date of the first use of this trademark as 1961, which precisely fits into my original assertion that the manufacturing era of the cymbal that I showed above was from the early 1960's.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/ebay/A%20Zil%20Cie%202.jpg[/img]

And another interesting fact about some of the cymbals that bore this trademark is that they were not actually brilliants, and they were hand hammered in the same style as the K. Zildjian & Co. (Canada) cymbals were. Evidently these were hammered by the same artisans that made the Candian K's; namely the old K. Zildjian foundry workers that were imported to Canada from the old K. Zildjian foundry Istanbul.

The foundry artifact appears to be "slag" / impurities in the cast metal.