In a factory New Beat pair there shouldn't be a size difference. The tight clousre of both edges is neccesary for the typical tight closed sound.

Zildjians did and do vary in sound and sound quality, so buying unheard isn't a good idea if you want to record with them. I got some New Beats from Maxwell's site via soundfile. More expensive than ebay, but worth it to me.

Some light reading: my Brief history of New Beats.

http://black.net.nz/avedis/new-beats.html#NBtop

There are some pending changes to go in (a new form of the earliest ink), but the outline covers the 1970s territory reasonably well. I can't tell exactly which sort of ink and die stamps you might be talking about without pictures. You should be able to find suitable illustrations on my site, although in the later years you also have to refer back to the general gallery and timeline (Avedis by Years) pages. The links to do that are at the bottom.

In addition to telling us just what you've got, weights might help to see if they are within the expected range. However, there is more variation between matched tops and bottoms than previously thought. Probably because I'm the only one nerdy enough to collect the weights up and analyze them.

It is possible that one (both?) of yours are cut down from slightly larger cymbals? Pics of yours showing the location of the pressed in die stamp and the ink might shed light on that. More precise diameter control came in at least by the late 50s early 60s, based on my measurements of a small collection, plus others comments on various eras and exact diameters. But New Beats didn't come onto the scene until after the diameters became quite accurate.

It would really help to know the diameter of each of yours, not just know that they are different. Are they both over 14"? Or is one a bit less than 14"? Accurate measurements please (say to within 1/8") because we're looking for subtle differences in roundness at the same time. Go around and measure in different locations (different diameters) to see if they are perfectly round. And nest one into the other and see if one appears to be perfectly round relative to the other. Do they nest together nicely? Are the bells the same diameter? These are all hints about possible origins as something other than a factory pair, and one being cut down.

Maybe each cymbal suffered a serious ding or edge crack and somebody re-trimmed the edge in a bit to remove it. Doing that and keeping the cymbal in round means more equipment than doing it by less sophisticated means. Less sophisticated trimming back might well show up in slightly flatter areas.

Lots to think about and things to explore. Hope this helps.

Hi, thanks for the info. The bottom hat is 13 & 7/8", while the top is 14 & 3/16". I'll try to get their weights.

The bottom has the straight first-gen stamp, but also a hollow Zildjian logo. Top has no markings.

Weights are 790/1380g

Those weights are within the expected range for New Beats.

The diameters aren't as close as I'd expect to 14" given the manufacturing period. However, just because they are different diameters doesn't automatically account for their poor performance as a pair in my limited experience. I've got some pairings with different diameter tops and bottoms and they work fine. In some cases the differences in diameter are because they are from the Zildjian Trans Stamp period (before sizing became as accurate as it is 1960s onwards) and in other cases it is mixing Italian (made in metric so not quite exact inch sizes) with accurate inch sizes, or modern Turkish or Chinese (which seem to combine metric and inaccurate sizing in different cases). I played lots of mix and max across continents before I settled down with ones I like.

One test now is to put each hat on a flat surface and check that it sits well making contact with the flat surface all the way around. If one or both don't sit flat (we tend to call that "warped") that could be your problem. Did you get any insight into whether they are perfectly round or not based on measuring the diameter from several starting points? Did you nest one in the other to detect any out of round or flat areas around the circumference?

So your bottom hat has the 1st gen ink like this:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/NewBeatBottom60s.jpg[/img]

and also the hollow Zildjian ink like this:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/70sA3.jpg[/img]

That's an interesting combination. Does it have a 60s die stamp? Or a 70s?

60s: http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#60s

70s: http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#70s

And how about the top? What sort of die stamp does it have? You say no markings, but I presume you mean no ink markings. But it does have a Zildjian die stamp of some sort? if it isn't one of a few expected die stamps, then maybe your top cymbal is something else which Zildjian made? Not from the A line? Possibly a second? Or entirely non Zildjian?

I think it's getting to be time for a picture of each hat from the top and the bottom. That might save me using 1,000 words to try and pull out the details I need to be sure what you have there. I'd be looking at lathing, bell shape and size, and that sort of thing which might be a clue.

You do have the option to start looking for an orphan and play "mix and match" to try and find a pairing which give you the sound you seek. But that's a potentially more expensive road than just buying a pair you do like the sound of.

With photos we would be able to tell you if you were sold a lemon or if you've got some good ones. Are one of the cymbals larger that 14"? Or smaller? Use this site to identify the stamps.

http://www.hidehitters.com/cymbals/Zildjianstamps/timeline.html

Some early Zildjian are odd sizes and actually more valuable than 60's Zildjian. You might have a Trans Stamp crash on a New Beat Bottom or one could be smaller because it was cut down to size. If you think they sound inferior to your modern New Beats then they could be lower line B8 Zildjians with the ink logos polished off. Photos would help.

You post a link to Hidehitters when I've already posted links to my own site which is much better (even if I do say so myself)? Hidehitters is

[LIST]

[*]false: totally bogus years in headings like: BIG STAMP 1955-1963 A.ZILDJIAN

[*]incomplete: misses out a number of die stamps

[*]inadequate: lacks heights and info on diagnostic features with annotations

[/LIST]

and really should be avoided. Hidehitters also took the info from Bill Hartrick (VDF member Drumaholic) yet failed to give Bill any credit for doing the research to create the timeline in the first place. Poor etiquette. Then Hidehitters mangled some of the original research from Bill, and left lots of stuff out. Poor documentation.

The question has already been answered. We have the diameters of both:

Okay, the bottom seems like it's even all the way around at 13 & 7/8"

Here are a couple pics of the bottom:

The bottom pics look good. One thing I was looking for was a larger bell. For example:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2015/HB-vs-SS-14-bells.jpg[/img]

On the left is a 14" hat with a 4" diameter bell (which is what you would expect). On the right is a 14" hat with a 5" diameter bell (possibly a sign that it was cut down from a larger diameter cymbal). Your bell size looks good on that bottom hat.

The ink is interesting as well. Yes the placement is different, but it seems to me the shape of the lettering on that ink stamp is slightly different from mine:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/NewBeatBottom60s.jpg[/img]

The lettering on yours is slightly taller and skinnier, although maybe that is just an effect of camera angle, focal length of lens, etc. I'd be interested to hear what others thing viewing the two photos. I'm getting my visual estimate of size by comparing the height of the ink stamp lettering to the size of the mounting hole (1/2" from the 1960s onwards -- there were some smaller holes back in the 1950s but that shouldn't affect our discussion of New Beats).