From the auction listing: "This auction is also NO RETURN, since I believe I have accurately described the cymbal and offered numerous pictures as well as a decent quality sound file. Please bid confidently."

Good luck trying to get around that one. As a seller, you have a marketable product that some people may not be happy with, even after all they've heard and read about the cymbal. All they have to do is file a claim with PayPal and it's all up to them, and the mostly find for buyer.

That's not the way it works with eBay. If you list an item through eBay with the 'no return' option, you are obligated to describe the item accurately and if you don't, the buyer can file a claim with eBay saying it was not as described. However, they can't just return it because they ended up not liking the cymbal. That's the whole idea behind it. If you're that worried about not liking a cymbal before you play it, don't buy one online.

Also there is no reserve? That means if the market is very slow because of the economy and the top bid is say $1200 that's all you would get. I think that's kind of risky in a soft market.

I don't see a signature under the bell, so this NOS looking cymbal may have been cleaned.

You've got a lot to learn about cymbal marketing, sir. An auction at no reserve will make a lot more people interested in bidding.

Also, look closer on the bell, it's there. It's not very uncommon for the signatures to be faint. And it has never been cleaned. I know this for a fact cause there has only been one other owner.

First, you seem insulted by my comments. I'm not sure why, but no insult was intended. Second, I looked again at the view of the underside of the bell on eBay. I blew it up to appear full screen on a 24" HD monitor and I still can't find a signature. I'm sure its there as you say, albeit faintly, but I can't see it.

Despite your rather harsh comments regarding my experience selling Old K's, you're correct. I have however followed many auctions for old K's and old A's for quite some time, and have purchased cymbals from several. Unless my memory is faulty, most of these auctions had reserves on them.

With Old K's, with or without reserves, my experience has been that until the final hour or so none of the bids seem to have much meaning. The last few minutes is where much of the real action appears to take place. Again, I'm not an expert, but this is my observation.

I hope eBay nets you what you think the cymbal is worth. I was a bit surprised by Bill's assessment of the value since it wasn't that long ago that some 22" old K's were selling for $3K or more! But I guess the market is a bit softer these days. My 20" new stamp, which was also in NOS like condition (with a like new shine and not a mark on it) cost me $1500 around a year ago! The signature on mine is crisp and distinct, but then my cymbal is many years newer so I guess that is to be expected.

I've never understood why some sellers with high dollar items skimp on the pictures. Low quality and not enough of them.

But that would be only for thin 22" old stamps. Old stamps have typically been seen to be valued at around 50% higher than the others. And despite the way the market is now, those "cream of the cream" types will still command that much and even more. It's just that they don't seem to und very often these days.

I'm sorry if it seemed I was insulted by any comments, I didn't mean to come off like that. (It seems personality never comes through over text messages...:P)

Also, you may be looking at the wrong picture for the signature. I have a couple that show the underside of the bell, but there is one that is zoomed in so close that you can't even see the bell hole, and that's the one where you can make out the signature.

I found the picture you're referring and indeed a faint signature was visible.

I understand that, but I still thought the a 22" intermediate would bring in somewhat more than you suggested.

My own 20" new new stamp may in fact have been somewhat overpriced at $1500. . What made ithis medium thin cymbal such a good choice for me was its like new condition and its great sound. I got it for my son who gigs extensively. It has become his favorite main ride (out of the 30 or so we own) and is used with either his Lugwig or Gretsch bop kits. It epitomizes all the things we would look for in an old K.

Even though its age and stamp may make it less vailuable from a purely collectable point of view, it is, none the less, a great sounding cymbal and we've never regreatted this purchase.