Not to hijack the thread (a good discussion, by the way) but I think John was absolutely right about the heads that new sets come with, and this actually seems to apply to both import and American drums (I know some people have complained about new DW heads.)

And I think that this is actually the fault of the retailers. They know the game with stock heads. They may sound ok in the store before anyone really gives them a workout, and they look shiny and new. But after the kid gets a chance to really put the set through its paces a few times the heads easily dent, dont stand up to any abuse, and before long at all, wont stay in tune. Now the almost brand new drum set sounds terrible, kid loses interest, drums in attic, mom and dad feel like they wasted the $350 and no one is happy. Maybe in one out of ten cases someone figures out to go and get a set of decent heads to put on, and gets the rude awakening that reheading even just the snare and tom batters will cost $60-100 retail price. Again, no one is happy.

I think retailers need to take some responsibility for this. If GC or whoever is selling a new set and making a decent profit on it, why cant they, as a service to the customer who is laying down the money for a NEW product, put a set of good heads on there to make sure the customer is going to be happy for more than 1 month?

It would be so easy and everyone that bought a new set would be so much better off. They could calculate the cost of the new heads into the price.

It should go like this: "Thanks very much for your business. We are just going to switch out the 'floor model' heads for some quality heads that will last you a while and get them tuned up for you. We'll have you on your way in just a few minutes."

But GC doesn't care, as long as they can keep moving cheap MIC product.

This is part of a bigger rant, which I wont go into here, but as much as I would like to support local stores and businesses, I think I am now pretty much done with them and I'm going to be buying everything I need online. I am sick of dealing with stores and the sales people at music stores. Sorry, but I have decent cymbals so no I dont want to buy a XXX 16" crash for $259, no, I dont want to buy a MIC set (no matter how pretty the wrap is) for $650, no, I dont want to pay $60 for a head that I can get online for $25. And, most recently, no, I dont want to pay $12 for a set of generic MIT snare wires that I can get online for $4.25!!!

I'm sick of being persona non grata at my local music shops because I have no interest in new MIC garbage. If they dont want me to come in every now and then to browse their used inventory (for vintage gear made when manufacturerers gave a damn about the product they put out) then dont carry used items!!!

Rant over, thank you.

I agree with you on this to a point. The stuff you speak of is the big-box chain stores, not a true drumshop. Find a real drumshop in your area and I'm sure you will change your mind.

The chain stores are all about moving product and fast to the uneducated "musician". The last time I went into one of those places I went in to get a couple of new heads....and they didn't even have them! "You mean to tell me you don't carry Remo coated ambassador heads, the most popular drumhead in the universe??" And if have to be called "Dude" one more time....ugh!! Anyway, they work on commission....a real drum shop is most likely independently owned and probably run by the owner and a couple of others, That's the way Jacks, and Joes were around here anyway, so the pressure is off and they are willing to talk something they know about....DRUMS! :D So don't count out the little local guy just yet. I can tell you that internet shopping is easier for things like heads and sticks, but for something like parts and hardware and new kits, I'd rather talk to a real person that knows drums.

And thats my two cents on that....

The problem you had with your Gretsch set was common then.....among other Gretsch drums. Why? Well....it was owned by a piano company after all....what the heck does a piano company know about making drums? Plus the company was moved like three times during that period! No wonder they had quality issues! Not their finest hour for sure. Rogers was pretty pathetic by then too, CBS did wonders to Rogers and Fender too.....same scenario, what does a radio/tv/record company conglomerate know about making musical instruments?

These are not excuses for the quality of the drums, but facts. Yes they had issues, but eventually after the Gretsch family bought the company back those issues were fixed. They make some of the finest drums in the world right here in the USA again, and the farmed out imports aren't bad FOR THE MONEY. Ludwig never really had a major quality issue......not that I have found anyway. Never had a tuning issue with the kits I've owned and still own. I've had wrap issues a couple of times, but I feel it had more to do with what the wrap was made from, how it was attached, and the conditions it was subjected to. (probably more my fault than Ludwig's) Ludwig fixed that problem many years ago and they still make some of the finest drums in the world. I've had very few hardware issues over the years from my now vintage Ludwig hardware. I do have some of the modern stuff that is made overseas and it just doesn't hold up to the riggors of the road like the old Atlas and Hercules and even the early Modular hardware does.

I'm sorry to all those out there that love their Asian imports, but I just don't see the quality you speak of. The hardware is all made in china now and does not hold up well and the drums all sound the same with no distinct character. When someone plays Gretsch, you can tell by the sound. Same with Ludwig. It has a sound all its own and its pleasing to my ears.

Besides, I'd rather keep the workers here working rather than support another country's workers. Believe it or not, things are still made here in the USA and they are of very good quality.

Actually, I am talking about locally, independently owned stores. Specifically a drum shop and a used instrument store around my area. I honestly try to never set foot in a GC if I can help it. I know the deal there and I just dont want to bother. Besides, anything that could be needed at GC can be had off the internet cheaper and with less hassle.

I do feel bad for the independent shops, I know they are being Wal-Marted out of existense, and that is unfortunate. I know they need to sell at a mark up to pay their 2 or 3 employees, keep the lights on, pay the lease, etc. But if they, the independent shops, want to fight going out of biz, then they at least need to focus on customer service and make the customer who is buying a singe tension rod feel as important as someone buying a whole drum set.

And the pricing? I dont get it. An example: If drumfactorydirect can sell me a set of snare wires at $4.25 and still make money, why does the independent shop need to sell it for 3 times that? I'm not unreasonable, I would be more than happy to support the shop and pay double, $8.50 and was even fine paying $10. But $12??? At that point it makes more sense to buy 2 sets of wires online and pay the shipping.

The mark up on heads is ridiculous. Other than in an emergency type situation, why would anyone buy heads at a store now when you get them online for 60% or more off list price? And I know stores are aware of this... Paying the extra money just comes down to sympathy now. Is that what capitalism and free enterprise are based on? Please tell me, I'm no Adam Smith.

Regarding the import vs. made in USA issue, I am kind of, nay, totally conflicted. I love the 60s MIJ stuff. Yet, I am aware that Japan was the China of yesteryear. I cant stand the MIC stuff coming out now, and I'm pretty contemptuous of most of the Taiwanese stuff from the later 70s-80s as well. Are my opinions/attitudes on these products based on the actual quality of the products? Do I like the 60s stuff just cause it's older than me? Do I wish that I could buy a drum set or a guitar that was made in America (with American parts) for less than the cost of a decent used car? Do I hate corporate American culture that has taken jobs away from craftsmen/craftswomen (in the musical instrument and several other industries) that has been going on for, oh, right around 50 years now? Could it be that America, the world's bright beacon of capitalism, has hung itself with its own rope? And is too set in its ways as a society to do anything meaningful to reverse the process? I dont know...

Vintage American drums are awesome. We can all agree on that. They sell for a lot of $ because they are awesome. Vintage drums have a sound that cant be replicated by new drums (foreign or domestic, I would say.) The 60s MIJ stuff is the only way to get into the ballpark of vintage drum sound for the cost of a beginner set (or less, if you catch a deal.) Yes, they need more work, much more work, than a older MIA set, but if we enjoy the work, and get a sense of satisfaction out of making a viable instrument out of what might be considered 'old junk' what is the harm? These drums were sold 40+ years ago, and anyone interested in a 60s MIJ set is not going to be the target demographic for Ludwig's 'SuperAwesomeHellaExpensiveClassicSeries,' so I think the hit on the economy and the American worker is pretty minimal.

If you are interested in more of my opinions, please check out my upcoming editorial in Whogivesaratsass newspaper...

The price the little guy in the small "mom and pop" type store charges is a reflection of what he is charged. He may only need to stock 6-12 snares to last weeks, for example. He might want to stock more at a better price, but the big chain down the road that is able to buy at "off the page" prices has taken much of his business away.

Exactly also the mom and pop store may be using a jobber or middleman,AKA COD, term payments etc!! I have a very good bud that owns a local music store here in my town he's offered to sell it to me countless times, NO THANK YOU!! chain stores have regional territories that are protected by there dealership agreements and a independent store stands almost no chance, unless you have deep pockets!!

You have now made this personal by attacking me, so here is my reply:

You know, I did not call your Dodge "junk", but good luck trading in when it has gone too far past the front gate. I have spent too many hours trying to get people out of Mopar products when they should be a slam dunk deal otherwise. The truth is, Mopar is the absolute last American vehicle I would purchase. I own a 2004 Nissan Titan (made in America, by American workers) that will blow the doors off of most "sports cars", and my Wife's car is a 2008 Ford Escape that has one of the absolute best all-wheel drive systems I have ever driven, and that is more than most people. Within 6 months of our purchase, it, like virtually every other "American" vehicle, was worth about half it's original sticker price. I don't set the market, the people do. Having been in the car business for many years, selling and driving thousands of vehicles, and talking to the people about them, it is clear what the people think. Most American cars are not worthy. That is public perception, not my own personal opinion. And the bit about American cars and the last twenty years is off by a good ten. If you still see K-cars and GM X-body cars, they are the last alive, because they aren't alive here, and this is where all of the GM X-cars came from, OKC Assembly, and the people that built those cars knew they junk. And because that's who sets the market. For the record, I have been a Ford man all my life, American Ford. When I drove the Titans for several months, and saw the overall quality compared to anything else, to me it was a no brainer. And that was a tough decision to make as I really had my mind set on an F-150, for many years.

And for the record, I despise Honda.

Dodge...They have many of the same faults as Toyota, lest you block those news casts out, Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, all have the mysterious acceleration and jumping in or out of gear and running through buildings, but when Toyota has a few problems in 50 years of building decent vehicles, you want to scream it from the mountain. I suggest you google the Daimler-Chrysler problems and see, it can happen to anyone. And has. I know 2 people personally, not including the 6 I sold new cars to I did not have a personal relatioship with, that had a Dodge/Chrysler Caravan experience jumping uncontrollably out of park into reverse and wrecking.

This was not meant to be a slap in the face of American anything, but since you only see one side of the story, yours, it has become that. Sorry, but that is how it looks to me....

I have mixed feelings and can see both sides of all of this...

However, the whole crappy head argument on new sets only has value IF the player has a clue on tuning or even cares about what the drums sound like. Most drummers don't care or have a clue...... so the head selection becomes mute.

I don't need to google anything about D-C...I'm living it firsthand. I see these cars everyday at work. I'm the guy fixing them! And the problems are far less with these cars than what Toyota has problems with right now. At least our engineers are actually FIXING them as opposed to Toyota that just tells their customer that there's nothing wrong with their cars and here's a revised set of floor mats!

BTW, your Titan may be ASSEMBLED here in America, but it is made up of parts made in Japan, Korea, and CHINA. Chrysler products are assembled in the US, Cnada, and Mexico using US, Canadian, and Mexican MANUFACTURED parts. By buying an american car, you not only are supporting an american worker, but also an american company. By buying Nissan, Toyota, or Honda...even though its assembled here, you are still supporting a FOREIGN company. And that my friend is what is wrong with this country today.

Trust me I do see both sides of the story and foreign cars are not any better than American cars. They just cost more in the long run....more to maintain, because they insist you NEED all these so many thousand mile services, more because the parts are rediculously expensive, and more because their labor rates are higher. Why? Because they have the public snowed into it costs more because its foriegn so it must be better! American cars are cheaper to own....they cost less to maintain and don't have these "required" services that the imports do. Its not my opinion, its a fact. Look into it sometime.

In regards to the chrysler mini-van issues....what year van is it? This was only an issue with the 2008 vans as it was rushed out the door by chrysler around the time of Daimler's jumping off point. The van should have come out in 2009 after more time to develop it properly. The 2010s do not have this issue, and there are so few 2009s out there since the plants were shut down for 8 months during the whole bankruptcy thing. Chrysler was the originator of the minivan, and they still make the best. If they didn't, why is the resale value for them higher than anyone else's minivan? Explain that.

Drum forum discussions are getting avant guard these days, man! flowers2