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The Devil's Advocate

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From atomicmorganic

I drive Japanese cars and love the economy and reliability. I have played Japanese drums that sounded good. But......for character and "soul" I prefer European cars and American (and some German) drums. It is hard to quantify these qualities though. There is nothing at all wrong with high end Japanese products except that they lack personality. Does this make sense? I agree that American auto maker have only themselves to blame.

I dissagree with the statement the the American auto makers only have themselves to blame. The blame is placed on the American CONSUMER that keeps buying Import cars. American cars have been as reliable and safe as any import for over twenty years now. Those that claim imports are superior are brain washed by the marketing men. I've worked for both American and various European and Asian car companies in the past. The American cars see the least amount of major failures from my own personal experiences and they last longer. You still see 57 Chevys driving around don't you? When is the last time you saw an Asian car over 15 years old on the road regularly?

When is the last time you saw a European car over 20 years old that wasn';t a garage queen sports car still on the road? I still see Chevy celebrity's and K-cars on the road around here regularly, and I live in what is known as the salt belt! I can't remember the last time I saw a Honda or Toyota around here older than 10 years old still on the road......

You said it though brother....imports, no character.....that applies to Asian cars as well as Asian drums.....I mean, when's the last time you were drooling over a new Camry? DOH

Posted on 14 years ago
#11
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From Ludwig-dude

I dissagree with the statement the the American auto makers only have themselves to blame. The blame is placed on the American CONSUMER that keeps buying Import cars. American cars have been as reliable and safe as any import for over twenty years now. Those that claim imports are superior are brain washed by the marketing men. I've worked for both American and various European and Asian car companies in the past. The American cars see the least amount of major failures from my own personal experiences and they last longer. You still see 57 Chevys driving around don't you? When is the last time you saw an Asian car over 15 years old on the road regularly?When is the last time you saw a European car over 20 years old that wasn';t a garage queen sports car still on the road? I still see Chevy celebrity's and K-cars on the road around here regularly, and I live in what is known as the salt belt! I can't remember the last time I saw a Honda or Toyota around here older than 10 years old still on the road......You said it though brother....imports, no character.....that applies to Asian cars as well as Asian drums.....I mean, when's the last time you were drooling over a new Camry? DOH

My last 1989honda accord had 300.000 + miles on it, and i sold it to a kid and he's still driving it, my toyota camry is a 1995 model still going strong with 165,000 miles on !!! yeah mopar is doing real well right now and has been brought back from the brink twice already???, goverment bailout, they'll be out of business like all the other american crap, and how many american parts are in these pieces of junk anyway!!!

Your drummers not much good is he!? What you need is someone that's as good as me. ! John Henry Bonham !!
Posted on 14 years ago
#12
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I regularly see 70s and 80s Japanese pickups in my part of the world. Most of those '57 Chevys have been lovingly restored at a cost of many thousands of dollars. Just like your old Luddys and Slingys. My own Asian cars are 17 and 14 years old and my Volvo is 16 years old. All are running great and looking good. None have less than 150,000 miles on them. Personally, I will never buy another American car. New Ludwig Legacys or a Craviotto are an entirly different thing however, not to mention Gretsch USA customs.

Posted on 14 years ago
#13
Posts: 5173 Threads: 188
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The American manufacturing industry is full of litigation and liability and so many hands grabbing at the money that, by the time we get to put the microscope on the products, there isn't much left to look at.

It's "funny" to me how, for example, an old Emerson oscillating fan can be made in a way that lasts for decades and decades and decades with virtually no mechanical or electrical failure -even though they were (supposedly) much more primitive. You know the ones I'm talking about? They were built like tanks!

Why aren't things made like that anymore? Did we forget how? No....

One day, someone said, "Wow! Our products are SO good, we can only sell them once! We should stop making them so well and then maybe customers will come back when they break and we can sell them another one! I know! Let's start thinking of ways to make things a little less expensively and design things to eventually fail -not too soon, but within a reasonable period of time. That way, people will stay loyal to the brand and come back again and again, thinking that we are a company who has the customers' best interests at heart."

Now, add to that, the weight placed on employers to provide safe working conditions, ALL kinds of insurance, etc. If someone calls in sick, they still get paid. If someone gets pregnant, they get maternity leave....For employers, it basically, starts to boil down to the question of how cheaply can we operate the business? You can either cut corners on the people or you can cut corners on the products.

In China, they don't apply the same standards and working conditions, i.e., severance pay, dental insurance, medical, paid vacations, etc., that we HAVE to apply. So, they can, in some cases, make a better set of drums because they can put that money into the raw materials and design rather than into the mouthes of their employees.

And so then it becomes a, "Well, if ya can't beat em', then join em'!" kind of thing. Thats why most American drums are made in China, now. We simply can't afford to make American drums the way we used to make them. What happens next is all about marketing.

Marketing is everything to businesses like drum making. That's because Keller is the company who makes the shells and a couple other Chinese factories make the hardware for a couple of companies that spec out the designs to the factories. There really isn't much new these days. So, how do you separate yourself from your competitors/ Answer: "MARKETING!"

You make up a story about how the shells are made from ancient Chinese maple and relate it to something about salvaged logs from pillars of the Forbidden City and then you paint them bright "Chinese Crimson" lacquer. And you LIMIT the production to 2,000 sets worldwide (which is a LOT, in reality) and then you price them in a way that makes people believe they are something other than a regular, old Keller drum with some rather generic hardware.

Truth be told: My first drum set came to me EXACTLY in the way jonnistix describes in that scenario. I WANTED a Ludwig kit. I GOT a Tempro kit. The price difference was obviously major at the time. I proved myself by sticking to them (pun intended) and mowed lots and lots of lawns before I could afford a real "pro" drum set. But I did it and my reward was that the product I spent my money on was a good one -so good, in fact, I still have those drums!

As well as all that, I also like good deals, too. When it boils right down to it, and not trying to come across as better than anyone else, but I know when something is quality. I can see it. I guess I've lived long enough around quality products that I know what is what. Honestly, I look for the quality first. I don't really care where it's made, how it's made or who made it -as long as the quality is there. But, again, in all honesty, I don't see the old-style quality in any new products.

Even with the example that people bring up about modern cars being so much better.... I would argue that old Model T's and Model A's would still be rolling on the road if we, as a society, hadn't gotten in a such a hurry. Who needs air bags in a car that can only do 20 MPH? lol! ;) In terms of quality, though, older things that weren't designed to become obsolete, are clearly superior. There are just too many examples to list.

The real shame about the cost of doing business is that it's gotten to the point where innovative designs are stifled. It used to be a form of competition among the big companies to out-design the other one. But the idea of really new design concepts would mean too much re-tooling and expense to maintain the profits. So, who knows what great designs people have come up with that will never see the light of day because of the fact that it costs so much to be creative these days?

I have some design ideas, myself, that I couldn't even begin to afford to bring to market. I'm talking simple ideas that could really be useful. One day I got the urge to snoop around and see what would be involved with prototyping and branding and blah blah, blah...UNBELIEVABLY expensive. And there is little protection for the idea once it's made known. If it's a good idea, then someone will steal it and dare you to sue them over it. Most people can't afford to fight those battles, or they simply don't have the time or the inclination for it.

For me, in most cases (not all, but most), I find the quality I desire in the objects made a long time ago. It's fun for me to seek them out when I can. But, hey, I have to drive on the same highways as you do and I can't drive a Model T across country in the winter. It's a matter of practicality, sometime, too.

And that puts us right back to square one!

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God
Posted on 14 years ago
#14
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I think this whole topic is rigged to get everyone on one side or the other...ultimately we all end up getting ticked off at each other. Not worth it. I'll keep my american cars and american drums and you guys can keep your asian junk.

I am officially done with this rediculous topic.

Posted on 14 years ago
#15
Posts: 5173 Threads: 188
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LOL! I actually like the topic. I don't think anyone has "rigged" it. The title IS "The Devil's Advocate", after all! :)

I like old American stuff when it comes to drums. When it comes to cars, I really don't care. I'm not that into cars, anymore because driving has become more of a labor rather than a pleasure. I associate cars with pollution and crowding, impoliteness, isolation and road rage. Fortunately, I don't feel that way about drums and drumming.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God
Posted on 14 years ago
#16
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From Ludwig-dude

I think this whole topic is rigged to get everyone on one side or the other...ultimately we all end up getting ticked off at each other. Not worth it. I'll keep my american cars and american drums and you guys can keep your asian junk. I am officially done with this rediculous topic.

I don't see myself on one side or the other. I like American drums. At least the ones made before 1970. I like Japanese cars. At least the ones made after 1990. I am most definately NOT brainwashed. Thank you for allowing me to keep my cars.

Posted on 14 years ago
#17
Posts: 2433 Threads: 483
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I dont think anyone should get angry over this.Go ahead and debate the issues,but keep it about why we come here,to discuss drums.I,d like to know why its all about Asia?..Did,nt Germany and Britain also make cars er..ummmm drums i mean?....How about those Sonor drums eh..talk about built like a tankGroup Hug

Hit like you mean it!!
Posted on 14 years ago
#18
Posts: 5173 Threads: 188
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Good points, Wayne.

Maybe some of it goes back to childhood. When I was a kid, anything that was labeled "Made In Japan" was seen as being inferior and, well...junky.

Conversely, Germans were known for their engineering skills, though -and admired as such. The same thing goes for the Swiss and the British, who both were also seen as producing very high quality products.

I think the Chinese are seen as being so productive that people automatically factor in a certain amount of lowered quality control that comes along with that massive amount of production. And I tend to agree that the Asian angle of manufacturing seems to be to create massive amounts or replaceable lower-quality products. This plays in perfectly to the modern way of doing business.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche

"Nietzsche is dead." -God
Posted on 14 years ago
#19
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Yee-hah!Some feathers are ruffled!Here's a little story.....During almost my entire professional career I played a circa 73 Gretsch concert tom kit-with absolute pride to the point that NO OTHER DRUM was equal.I tolerated floor toms falling over,bass drums rolling over,toms going out of tune after EVERY SET.This is just the way it is-these are the best.So,I buy a brand new circa 82 Gretsch set-guess what?ABSOLUTE S#*T.Gaps in the plies,still go out of tune.Now fast forward to 2009.Many sets later.I buy a 1988 Tama Rockstar set with a Camco snare for $75,expecting to basicly throw the drums out to get the snare.Guess what?They don't fall over,they DO NOT GO OUT OF TUNE.I wish with all my heart I could just buy American drums.But all that time retightening set screws and retuning can now be spent making music-which is what drums are for.And NOT for $3,000 dollars.$3,000.How many weeks pay is that for YOU.

AND-my first set was Kent.

Posted on 14 years ago
#20
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