My sentiments exactly. And if Mel had been on Cymbalholic with this same commentary he would have been banned for life.

I drive by the Avedis plant a dozen or so times a year getting off the Hanover exit off 3. Going down Pond to Longwater is a short cut around traffic to Main st. One day I'll stop by to see if they take visitors or browse their sales store if they got one.

I don't think they have a store there and they don't do visitors tours anymore. I would suggest calling them before you go just to check.

Doesn't look gated but I'll take that advice. If you blink you miss it, simple little sign in the grass.

Beautiful! Lol!!!!

I always thought "Avedis" Co. Snuffed Old K out... Mel and any one else reading the facts- a Few You Brought up- years back (The 1957-58 court case for example...) Would had to have come to the same conclusion.

Man did Mel let Avedis Co. have it in this 1985 talk.. whew.

So....Thanks a lot Avedis & Co. You couldn't handle the competition so your way of dealing with it was to simply just destroy it. Try making better product? No costs too much. With enough money to back you up, you squashed the little guy knowing full well they couldn't afford to fight against you in court. And now all of us are deprived of the freedom of personal choice to buy a classic cymbal that some of us truly loved. But I guess that's just too bad for all of us. Now we're expected to buy Zildjian's machine-made garbage imitation K's and to just be thrilled about it.

Also thanks to all those on Cymbalholic who were so completely blinded by hatred of me that they couldn't or wouldn't recognize the truth when it was presented to them.

And for any of you that you still don't know why I'm ****ed off, just re-read the previous paragraphs until you figure it out. Now then, let all of you that perpetually defend Z. at any cost because (and only because) its YOUR cymbal Co., and because of your need to assuage your tribalist egos;.....go ahead and bring it on. Pile on with your inevitable hate fest. It's not like I haven't heard it all before.

well put. You were falsely accused...actually you spoke truth....were more accurate than anyone to this day on stamps and timelines... and a consensus (not me) was made weenies couldn't handle the truth

anyone who knows anything respects that about you Bill.

No one's ever knocked you off top perch spot when It came to cymbals. From day 1.

You sorta introduced me to old Ks and that couldn't have been a better cymbal experience

I was playing Sound Creations when cymbalholic began.. within a year or two it was all old Ks.

Very interesting. Do you also agree with Mel's assessment of Istanbul cymbals being an old K equivalent. If so, I realize it was 1985 so does that still hold true? If so which models would be most old K like?

Listen to me. Old Ks were never (model) Turks, Sultans, Vezirs, Pasha, Ottomans, Empires (with their varied lathing patterns) nor were they ever, Flats or China's. So what Mel is talking about were the basic Original and Original Light and the Mediums.. the non...the basic ones..fully lathed. And what became his two 21/19/14- 20/18/13- lines....

There's aspects (cup and bridge) which even in the basic line that is not Old K same (resulting in not the old K same sound) . He was thrilled with a handmade and generally at the time was (it must of been ) a revelation. They're "similar".

No one to this day makes an Old K. Plus there were 6 Sound Eras over the span of existence (so which one?)

Some first Istanbul maybe can be mistaked for New Stamps, but beyond that, nyet..

Very few people (who are building cymbals) understand the Eras or know enough are familiar to zero in on them to replicate them. hasn't happened isn't going to.

6 general Sound categories and then multiple variance within that.. with Old K..

A 20" intermediate Stamp at around 1980 grams sounds like an Intermediate 20" at around 1980 grams from anywhere on the planet. They were Insanely Consistent- within a Stamp era. A Type IV 18" at 1520 gs is identcal to a type IV 18 at 1520 gs anywhere on the planet.

Insanely consistent cymbal to cymbal within their respective (stamp) Era..

Which makes me think Team remained same thru out an era. Then changed. (all I can think that explains it)

2900g New Stamp 22" sounds -build / the same from anywhere from anywhere on the planet; I've witnessed it over and over...and over..

Had to be same Foreman or Team until a stamp change (with a corresponding build change) (hence a sound attributes change)

Get it? hard to explain.

A Type II 20" at 1947 grams is not the same as a 20" New Stamp at 1947 grams. (or Intermediate or Type IV.. or)

But two Type II 20" at 1947 gram will be next to identical.

I've seen the consistency -within an era- over and over. And I've seen the different era's. Can tell them a mile away. And in Sound too if you get good.

I agree with Mel. The first time I hit an Istanbul in a music store in the mid-late-80s, I said holy crap, that's an old K. No they aren't the same as old stamps, or intermediate stamps, rather they were the continuation of the new stamps. It was like they just took up where they had left off. And like every other artisan, they continue to evolve today. But their cymbals are still the old K lineage, the continuation of a great line and with the same mindset. Avedis/Sabian/Paiste are, in my opinion, not really a part of that lineage as they broke away even before the old stamps were made (or what we commonly consider to be "old stamps"). 1929, that's first stamp, pre-swing, modern jazz cymbals didn't even exist yet.