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I don't mind taking the time at all. If people are going to invest hundreds or even thousands of dollars into something, all of their questions should be answered.

I love how this thread has developed and I think it's great to see a dealer chiming in. Let me explain my history buying and selling used and vintage instruments and my motivation.

I have a great deal of experience buying and selling used and vintage instruments, first off, and I was there, in the thick of things, when the vintage guitar phenomenon exploded in the mid to late '70s. I watched as "old guitars" suddenly became "vintage," and prices went through the roof, largely the work of dealers. I knew two NJ dealers of vintage guitars at the time: Tom Barth at The Music Box in Ledgewood, and Dave DeForrest at Guitar Trader in Red Bank. You couldn't ask for two more different individuals; Tom was a very nice guy, an excellent guitarist, who sold vintage guitars at a fair price because he loved doing it. DeForrest was a shrewd businessman, a shark, who saw nothing but dollar signs. He was rude, blunt, impatient and snippy. If you came into his store without money to spend, you were not welcome, and he made that fact well know. He quickly gained a very poor reputation among local guitarists, but was able to do business with some big name players. Eventually, DeForrest closed up his shop, sold his inventory and disappeared under mysterious circumstances. Tom went out of business and died of cancer years ago, a sad loss to the Northern NJ music community.

I watched as certain Gibson and Fender guitars escalated to the point that the average Joe or Jane couldn't afford them anymore. Les Paul Standard guitars from 1958-60 now fetch well over $150K and as much as $250K and up for flame top examples. The only people who can afford them are doctors, lawyers, business honchos and rich rock stars. I lamented seeing vintage guitars become "investments" instead of working tools that people could afford to purchase and play. The vintage guitar market took a serious dump with the financial crash of 2008, but prices have crept back up.

My motivation here is not to see this happen with old drumsets. True, the vintage drum market is much smaller than the vintage guitar market, but, with the Internet, both individual sellers and dealers have steadily tried to raise the prices of vintage drums, but I don't understand who is fueling this. I don't see any drummers in major acts using MIJ drums, unless I'm out of the loop. Who is creating this supposed price rise in MIJ drums? It's unwarranted, IMO. The drums are undeniably cool to collect and play, but let's face it; they're lower quality than anything made in the USA.

When you can score a nice vintage Slingerland or Ludwig kit for $550 like I did, there's no sane reason why any 60's MIJ set should cost more, rare finish or not. The deals on USA drums are still out there. Just look!

Finally, I will say I mean no ill will on Chris Hawthorne or his business. I wish him nothing but success. He has a right to ask whatever he wants for his inventory, but to be frank, his several poor Ebay ratings are a source of concern as well.

It's up to the individual whether or not he or she is willing to pay his prices for drums that are faded, beat up, unoriginal, or otherwise less than stellar. I, for one, will not, and don't want to see vintage drums become a rich man's hobby. Drums are meant to be played by drummers, not just corporate executives with deep pockets.

We didn't have the Internet in the '70's and '80's when vintage guitar prices were going up, up and away. We do now, and drum collectors can read all about it right here. As for me, I'm going to do everything I can to keep the prices of vintage drums to a reasonable level, so we can all enjoy them without breaking the bank. Ultimately, we all have a lot of power; we have the power to refuse to pay unrealistic prices for vintage drums, and continue to call out high priced dealers and individual sellers as we have been

Carry on, everyone. Rant over.

DrumBob!

It's rare when I read long, drawn-out, replies. But, in your case, I knew you had important things to say. You did and excellent job of explaining what has happened with prices and, more importantly, how this doesn't really apply to MIJ 60's and early 70's stencil sets and snare drums. My opinion is that it exists, for many sellers, to simply cash in on the perceived notion that vintage must equal $$$$. In the case of cheaply made MIJ drums, this just doesn't apply. They were made to fulfill a desire to get drums into the hands of kids who were fueled by the 60's Rock and Roll revolution...and by parents who couldn't afford to buy drums from Gretsch, Ludwig, Rogers and Slingerland.

The majority of these drums were cheaply made, with inexpensive woods and, many times, poor craftsmanship. Yes, as noted by many, they can be made to sound pretty darn good, but that requires time and some woodworking experience. I, for one, am not going to pay premium, over-priced, dollars for a kit "as-is" and then put hours of my own time, and more money, to make them sound acceptable.

But, the bottom line is that I don't feel that prices will come down...as long as there are vintage MIJ kits available and those sellers who think that OLD=$$$

-Mark

Who is creating this supposed price rise in MIJ drums?

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Drum Forums.

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for example from 9/2015

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=52437

from drum Chat boards to DFO to ebay to CH to...

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And then when one guy pays over 225$ and next pays over 300$ and the next pays.....and it's "off to the races"

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Old Ks used to be 90$ a piece till word caught on...

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As to "why" old "J" drums?

Hell who know's why people buy Porsche SUVS

who cares to know why..

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Only thing certain. It's not going back any time soon.

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Unless you find the needles left in the haystack- the 50$ MIJ in Jake's Haggle Hut -or the old K for 20$ at Ben's Bargain Barn...

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Same as it always Is

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Why do the prices go up?- That's easy All of us -> look in the mirror <-

I'm asking the same question. Please read my last post. I don't see any famous drummers hawking their MIJ kits, unless there are a few I'm not aware of. That could be the case, as I stopped reading drum magazines ten years ago. I know there's a Canadian drummer in a minor group who plays MIJ stuff, but he's hardly a major player.

In the '60s and '70's, you had guitar heroes like Clapton, Richards, Bloomfield and others, telling us '58-'60 Les Pauls were great guitars, so we all wanted them, then, they became too expensive, as dealers capitalized on the frenzy. Now, you'd have to mortgage your house to buy a guitar like that. Insanity.

I don't see that happening with MIJ drums at all.

I think it's the dealers reacting to the market in a negative way, assuming that anything old is valuable. We all know it just isn't so.

Still doesn't fully explain Zildjian Cymbal Snaps (gold).......

A lot of people are just Living Room drummers. Collectors. They have no intention of gigging. And they have some disposable cash. (From Supervising the Milk factory across town) So they load their Living Rooms with Every Color in the 1974 CB700 catalog. Then another Brand. And as long as the checks come in their wives can get their hair and nails (and teeth) done once a week--- put up with it.

Hell If I know.

I had a 50$ Torodor set that was a ball for awhile "on the side"... until I realized they were flexible (in the not good sense) and hardly "professional" on stage and in a Room. A Good Outside damp evening set. But hell. Nothing to be proud of- altho they sure were light soft and breezy...they were Too light soft and breezy.

Dressed em sold them on CL for 300$ and thought I made a million.

50$. Came with a Chinese 20" cymbal. a Yamaha HH and Cym stand and bd pedal. - The mismatched tom I turned into an 8x12 snare. 12/16/20. dressed em up. then sold the pigs. But they were fun. Just not the kind of drum that projects clearly out to the parking lot of a bar..

I learned one thing from them I've never forgotten. An 8 x 12 snare size kicks azz as does a 20/12/16 with metal bass hoops...

+1 with jda (yikes!). Simple supply and demand. There is a demand of some sort for vintage MIJ drums and the supply is finite. Sellers will always try to find the ceiling (right Hobbs?).