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What does hammering do for the sound of a cymbal?

Posts: 2374 Threads: 168

Here's we have 2 cymbals. One is a Zilco weighing 3049 grams. The other is a Zildjian weighing 3088 grams. The Zilco is not hammered. The Zildjian is hand hammered. Both are made using the Zildjian proprietary method of formulating the B-20 alloy. Both are the same diameter. The weigh difference between the two is about 1%, so both are virtually identical in weight.

The only real variable between them is that one is hammered and the other isn't. Even the pitches of both cymbals are virtually identical. So as far a s the sound is concerned, this is as pure as possible of a comparison between hammered and non-hammered cymbals with all other variables held constant. Listen and compare. Listen to them both at the same time momentarily switching between them to get a more immediate and accurate comparison. Click on the soundfile link for the 24" Zildjian which is shown in blue lettering within eBay ad.

The Zilco: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUteXUJZRmI]24" Zilco[/ame]

The Zildjian: 24" Zildjian

Posted on 14 years ago
#1
Posts: 3972 Threads: 180

First, know that I respect you and your accumulated wealth of experience where cymbals are concerned.

This comparison is lacking some very important variables.

-are the thicknesses the same from bell to bow? (calipers)

-are the bells the same size and thickness?

-are the profiles the same?

-how does the lathing compare?

etc etc etc

I see what you are doing and admire the effort. But, there are so many variables that go into how the disc will sound that it is very difficult to A/B these Zildjians.

I like what you've done here, but I cannot lean on the results.

Again, please don't take offense. I am viewing this from a pure sense. That's all. thanks.

Posted on 14 years ago
#2
Posts: 4009 Threads: 209

All bronze cymbals are hammered, be it by machine or by hand. If it wasn't hammered, it wouldn't be the shape of a cymbal. Probably the only cymbals that aren't hammered are the cheap brass beginner cymbals, those are most likely machine stamped into shape.

Zilco, Azco, Sabian, Ufip, Tosco, Zildjian, Paiste, Bosphorus, Istanbul, Meinl, Wuhan, Dream, even Zyn are all hammered.

Posted on 14 years ago
#3
Posts: 2374 Threads: 168

From Ludwig-dude

All bronze cymbals are hammered, be it by machine or by hand. If it wasn't hammered, it wouldn't be the shape of a cymbal. Probably the only cymbals that aren't hammered are the cheap brass beginner cymbals, those are most likely machine stamped into shape.Zilco, Azco, Sabian, Ufip, Tosco, Zildjian, Paiste, Bosphorus, Istanbul, Meinl, Wuhan, Dream, even Zyn are all hammered.

Stamped into shape. You hit right on it.

""From 1968 to 1970, the Azco factory produced 'Zilco' cymbals. There were two types of Zilco's, one that was a Zildjian that didn't make it, a second, and the other was a thinner rolling that was done without any hammering at all, which cut costs.Robert Zildjian, with a man named Dick Dane, invented the modern process for pressing cymbals into shape around this time in the Azco factory. Prior to this it was done by 'bumping' with the Quincy drop hammer.In 1970, Zildjian needed all their production capabilities at Azco for their regular Zildjian line, so the factory in Quincy (the then location of Zildjian) would send up castings to be finished into cymbals at Azco. At one point Azco was responsible for 40% of Zildjian's output."

Posted on 14 years ago
#4
Posts: 2628 Threads: 40

From Ludwig-dude

All bronze cymbals are hammered, be it by machine or by hand. If it wasn't hammered, it wouldn't be the shape of a cymbal.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Omigosh, no....this is very much in error. Today, probably a good half or more of all cymbals made are initially stamped from disks, whether they be B20, B15, or B8......and we are absolutely NOT talking just budget cymbals. Many a hand-hammered cymbal out there started it's life from being stamped....

At the beginning, Paiste... for the longest, longest time always stamped all of their blanks into shape, for instance....

Prior to the '50's you would be correct...the only way to shape a cymbal was by cooking it & hammering it into shape...but with the advent of mechanization and the availability of SHEETS of Bronze, that all changed...

If all decent or better cymbals were still hammered into shape, they would cost about 50-100% more than what they do now....[COLOR="Purple"]

McJ raises a good point, but nevertheless I feel that if you were to make a list of the priorities of cymbal variables....weight and alloy would have to be the top 2 on that list...followed closely in 3rd by profile and then taper....so.....[/COLOR]

[/COLOR]

www.2ndending.com
Posted on 14 years ago
#5
Posts: 2374 Threads: 168

From Jaye

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Omigosh, no....this is very much in error. Today, probably a good half or more of all cymbals made are initially stamped from disks, whether they be B20, B15, or B8......and we are absolutely NOT talking just budget cymbals. Many a hand-hammered cymbal out there started it's life from being stamped....At the beginning, Paiste... for the longest, longest time always stamped all of their blanks into shape, for instance....Prior to the '50's you would be correct...the only way to shape a cymbal was by cooking it & hammering it into shape...but with the advent of mechanization and the availability of SHEETS of Bronze, that all changed...If all decent or better cymbals were still hammered into shape, they would cost about 50-100% more than what they do now....[COLOR="Purple"]McJ raises a good point, but nevertheless I feel that if you were to make a list of the priorities of cymbal variables....weight and alloy would have to be the top 2 on that list...followed closely in 3rd by profile and then taper....so.....[/COLOR][/COLOR]

And I'm guessing that we already know what #1 is.

Posted on 14 years ago
#6
Posts: 4009 Threads: 209

From Jaye

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Omigosh, no....this is very much in error. Today, probably a good half or more of all cymbals made are initially stamped from disks, whether they be B20, B15, or B8......and we are absolutely NOT talking just budget cymbals. Many a hand-hammered cymbal out there started it's life from being stamped....At the beginning, Paiste... for the longest, longest time always stamped all of their blanks into shape, for instance....Prior to the '50's you would be correct...the only way to shape a cymbal was by cooking it & hammering it into shape...but with the advent of mechanization and the availability of SHEETS of Bronze, that all changed...If all decent or better cymbals were still hammered into shape, they would cost about 50-100% more than what they do now....[COLOR="Purple"]McJ raises a good point, but nevertheless I feel that if you were to make a list of the priorities of cymbal variables....weight and alloy would have to be the top 2 on that list...followed closely in 3rd by profile and then taper....so.....[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Actually all B20 Zildjians are started off as cast discs that are heated and ROLLED flat, not stamped. Then they are rough machine hammered into shape (ok ok it is a type of press that gives it the bell shape and rough bow taper, so technically it could be considered stamped) then the edge is trimmed to size and then either the machine hammering or hand hammering occurs, then of course the lathing and any final hammering.

To my knowledge, B20 is not available as a sheet. They start of as cast discs.

Also, I never said "hammered into shape" I just said all bronze cymbals were hammered, be it machine or otherwise........its part of the process which does help give it its end shape.

Posted on 14 years ago
#7
Posts: 2628 Threads: 40

From Ludwig-dude

Also, I never said "hammered into shape" I just said all bronze cymbals were hammered, be it machine or otherwise........its part of the process which does help give it its end shape.

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Plenty of other contemporary cymbals out there besides Zildjian B20's nowadays...and a vast majority are stamped into shape, not just stamped out of a sheet. Heck yeah, stamped B20, B8, B12, B15's...'fer sure....a number of makers do this....

Now, I don't wanna get this thread off on a tangent, but.....here's your very semantics ~

From Ludwig-dude

If it wasn't hammered, it wouldn't be the shape of a cymbal.

That's what you wrote...up there...so...in fact, that's what is misleading...because, of course it can be in the shape of a cymbal without being hammered at all. It's done all the time.

It can be stamped into the shape of a cymbal, that's all I was saying...doesn't need to be hammered to give it a cymbal shape...that's all I was commenting on....

The article Drumaholic quoted states right there: "Robert Zildjian, with a man named Dick Dane, invented the modern process for pressing cymbals into shape around this time in the Azco factory. Prior to this it was done by 'bumping' with the Quincy drop hammer."

Voila...B20's, stamped into shape....(call it stamped, or pressed... convention in this instance uses the 2 words to mean the same thing....)

[/COLOR]

www.2ndending.com
Posted on 14 years ago
#8
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