My apologies to anyone who took offense at my post. As I said above it wasn't really meant as an answer to any particular previous post or directed at anyone here but rather towards concepts that are floating around in the drum collecting world and that had surfaced in this question. If you thought I was directing it at you (anyone here) I was not, but I can see how it may have come off that way.

Honestly I tend to think about this stuff too much I suppose. The post above was the result of thoughts that were rattling around in my head for the past couple of days. Again not in direct response to anything posted here but rather towards the general ideas that Ludwig made many different lines of drums back in the day, and that if a set isn't pictured in a catalog it must somehow be inferior. And my feelings on either aren't going to change anything, but if any of it came across as mean spirited then I'm sorry.

Yes it could have been a yes or no answer, but where is the fun in that? Spirited debate and the exchange of ideas and opinions is what makes these places entertaining, but some stuff doesn't work on "paper" I suppose. Without seeing the twinkle in someone's eye or hearing that slight chuckle as they talk it becomes all so serious.

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No sir......directed towards the one who started this ridiculous argument in the first place......he had stated that "you could add an 18" floor tom to a jazzette if you wanted to" or something to that effect......wording it like why would one want to?

My reply to him was "you ever hear of Elvin Jones?".......now, Elvin played Gretsch & Tama (and briefly the Tama/Camco abomination) mainly, not Ludwig, but the principle is the same. He used an 18" bass drum like a Jazzette......but he also used an 18" floor tom with the rest of the smaller jazz sizes he was famous for.

While its fun to collect vintage drums, a lot of people get hung up on the "catalog correct" or "numbers matching" type of theories.....which is ok if you're into that. I'm not, and that's ok too. That whole crowd reminds me too much of the "numbers matching/period correct" Corvette guys.......in the end, does it really matter? TO those guys I always said just go drive the freaking thing! Its a car, that's what it was made for! I say the same to the vintage drum guys......just go play them! That's what they were made for! Cool Dude

Sorry. I didn't realize I was in an argument with anyone. I was just expanding on why one shouldn't use outfit names for individual drums and also on why catalog correctness can get carried too far (where we seem to be, more or less, in agreement). I guess my hope was that people reading it might expand their horizons a bit as far as certain aspects of vintage drum (or at least Ludwig) history and it wasn't meant as a rebuttal of anything that came before.

as far as Elvin..I had said

I didn't know that Elvin had done so but the fact that he did matches with what I said. Most people wouldn't think of pairing up those sizes but if someone wanted to it would be perfectly valid to do so...at least that's what I intended it to mean.

Again I guess when this stuff is in writing it can be taken different ways. Sorry.

This is why it is important to remember, we are talking about the names of things given in the Ludwig catalogs. As collectors, we have to establish some form of reference from which to gauge what we collect. The reason that a kit "custom ordered" by a singular customer, in a non-cataloged configuration will never have the same level of collectible-value as one that was in a vintage catalog, is because there is no reference for it. If it is a set that can be referenced, then it has a pedigree, so-to-speak.

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Look guys if we were little mice during Manufacturing of theses drums and the sales department we would know for sure . the rest is all conjecture , so come on guys relax and have fun Gary

I'm not trying to add wood to the fire but Kevin is making perfect sense. Personally I think Ludwig made catalogs to just showcase what they had available. They would put together outfits that they thought would be sellers and work well with what drummers wanted. Obviously the bulk of drum sets sold were most likely 20's,22's,12's,13's,14's and 16's. 12's could be made up all day long as they worked with any set(so long as a customer did not special order that drum as part of a lefty set up). 13's had to be drilled certain ways to work for the super classic set or the Hollywood set and 14's and 16's could be made the same all day long.

I think the catalog was really just a blueprint for availability because as K.O. points out one could special order anything they wanted in order to make a set. I don't think Ludwig really cared all that much as long as they were selling drums. Ludwig still makes up specialized sets so they can sell them faster. They have the quick pick option for people that are not too picky about the small details and just want a set that is already built in stock somewhere or already on a sales floor. I was picky with the details on my classic maple set that I bought new in 2012 so I had to wait 5 months for the set to be ready.

As Kevin mentioned, there was no such thing as a downbeat tom or a Hollywood floor tom. They were either super classic series, club date series or standard series for individual pieces. The rock duo set utilized the toms from a Hollywood set with two virgin 20" bass drums. I suppose you could also say the Hollywood set utilized toms from a rock duo. Obviously to have a catalog correct set up then the pieces must match the description but I think there are tons of Ludwig drums out there that were special ordered as a customer was more than likely picky about what they wanted.

So in closing there is no such thing as a downbeat set with an 18" bass drum. If you want to advertise the set like that and I get pleasantly surprised when the downbeat set I thought I bought had an 18" bass drum then by all means go ahead!

Ludwig didn't foresee a collector's market in their future, at the time they were making catalogs and selling those drums. Remember, in those days, the drums weren't "vintage" drums! They were brand-new! :)

What has happened, subsequently, is a kind of game among collectors. None of it has anything to do with what the Ludwig Drum Company had in mind. It's just something that happened as a result of things not being made in America after a certain point. Once items become finite and unobtainable, they often become more desirable.

Back then, Ludwig was just trying to sell drums. An individual could order anything they wanted and Ludwig would gladly comply....Yes....none of which has anything to do with what's happening now, amongst collectors. Ludwig's intentions and the collector's market don't correlate.

There are several "gray areas" too...like this question about "Is it a Downbeat kit?" Or, "Is it a Jazzette kit?"....My stance is that, if the configuration isn't listed as such, in a catalog and referenced as such, then calling it any name that did come from a catalog, is kind of bizarre. You can call it a Downzette or a Jazz Beat...or whatever other creative name you can think of....but it will have zero bearing to many collectors....to most collectors I dare say. :)

While the practice of custom-ordered kits that came directly from the Ludwig factory, absolutely did exist back then, there is no reference-able "pedigree" for them, now. There's nothing "wrong" with the kits when they do turn up. A matched kit is always better than a mis-matched one. But a kit with a model-name from a Ludwig catalog, that's matched, is always going to be the more desirable one. After that, it gets into finish and whether the kit has a matching snare drum, etc. The more boxes that can be checked, the better.