Don't mean to steal this post, but Ludwig uses some other interesting names for their drums. They offer "Club Date" toms "...for use with the "Combo" & "Spotlight" outfits." but no mention of the actual Club Date kit shown in the same catalog. And they offer center-lug 'Separate Tension" bass drums (20", 22", 24", & 28"), again, with no mention of their Club Date kit. Somewhat inconsistent, it seems........marko

Well, I actually own a few original 1960s & 1970s factory Jazzette kits.

It just so happens one of them is a 1967 12x18 bass drum with the far left rail mount.

So far it's the only one I've ever seen made like this so obviously they do exist... but... if you look really close you will see the rail mount was moved over probably by the factory about another .5" more to the left even further then what you would expect. The reason why, I say factory is in my 30 years of playing/collecting, I've never seen wrap repaired like this before.

Funny when the kit was sold to me the owner said it was a 14x18 but once unboxed it was a true 12x18! What a fantastic surprises for me...

Funny Post

While correct on a technicality, we all assumed that the OP was speaking of a CATALOGED Downbeat OUTFIT.

Yes, I suppose most of us knew that. The reason that I climb up on that soapbox on this particular issue is because using terms like "Downbeat Tom" just cultivates confusion in the long term. Many of us, myself included, are old enough to remember when most drum companies just made one type of drum shell and used it for everything, which is what Ludwig did in the 50's, 60's and most of the 70's (well, actually there were four different variations of shell lay ups* in the 3 ply era and often what was used depended on what the final finish of the drum would be, what they had on hand to use, and, apparently, which way the wind was blowing that day, but Ludwig considered them all to be the same and interchangeable, and during most of the 60's painted the insides white so they'd look the same regardless. They were "wood" and that was what mattered and they might be randomly selected for sets) but to younger guys from today's perspective, where every drum company makes 5 or 10 different shells to use in various lines, it seems to make sense that a "downbeat" tom might/must be different from a "Hollywood" tom, which is probably different from a "Big Beat" tom, . We see questions like this all the time..."Is this a Downbeat tom?" "what is the shell material of my Hollywood floor tom"."Is this tom a Downbeat or a Hollywood?" etc. etc. Even the topic of this thread. I think he did mean "did any Downbeat sets come with 18" bass drums?" but it could also be interpreted as "Did Ludwig make 18" bass drums in the Downbeat line"? (no...and there was no Downbeat line, for those keeping score). Of course someone could go into a music store, point to the Downbeat set in the catalog and say "I want that, but with an 18" bass drum" and it would happen and he might consider that his drum set is still a Downbeat.

Which brings me to my second soapbox issue, catalog correctness. It seems these days that if someone has a set that doesn't rigorously adhere to a picture in a catalog it is considered flawed in some way. Granted, the catalogs are an important resource when it comes to vintage drums but they aren't the end all, be all as far as whether a drum set is a viable musical instrument. And Ludwig was happy to build whatever you asked for within reason so a lot of "factory" sets didn't match anything in the catalogs.

If you wanted to buy a new set of drums back in the day there were four basic ways you could do it.

1: Walk into a music store and buy a set off the floor. Such a set would probably match one in the catalog but might not. For example, if the store owner felt for some reason that a 12/16/20 set-up was superior or easier to sell he could chose to order that in for his stock. Additionally the buyer might opt to delete the floor tom if he couldn't afford the whole set. Later he might add on a floor tom (might be a Club Date though if he was truly cash strapped). The dealer might end up with (for example) a red sparkle floor tom left in stock and then order what he needed to make up another set for the showroom floor, which may, or may not, line up with a catalog set.

2: Walk into a music store, point to an outfit in the catalog and say I want that in this color. End of story, the buyer would get a catalog set that matches the picture in every way...well, maybe not as sometimes the catalog didn't match the catalog. When you read the description there were a couple of sets through the years where what Ludwig was shipping out was not exactly like the set in the picture but they hadn't updated the photo (catalog art and color separations for printing are expensive).

This second scenario no doubt happened a lot which is why so many sets are "catalog" sets.

3: Walk into a music store, point to an outfit in the catalog and say I want this set in this color....except.... I want it to have a center post mount instead of a rail (I might add another tom someday), I want four disappearing spurs instead of the fold outs, I want the 14 x18 bass drum instead of the 12x18, I want a 24" bass drum, I want a matching wood snare instead of the Supra, I want double mufflers on every tom, I want an extra cymbal mount on the bass drum, etc. etc. etc. All perfectly valid requests that Ludwig was happy to accommodate but that are considered head scratchers and/or negatives today because they differ from the catalog picture.

4: Walk into a music store, start paging through the catalog with a salesman and put together the set of your dreams ala cart with everything just as you wanted it. You know like if you were a veteran drummer who after years of gigging had figured out exactly what you needed and wanted in order to play your gigs. The result might be far afield of anything shown in the catalog...oh that's a shame about those weird drums. Your beautiful 13/15/16/18/26 set in original Black Galaxy doesn't have a catchy name or a picture in a catalog...so sorry.

I'm sure that most of the sets sold were "catalog sets" as that was just easier all around so a lot of buyers (whether store employees or parents of drummers to be or working drummers) went that route. And I suppose that today it's just easier to assume that a set that matches the catalog is original while sets that don't might have been futzed with thru the ensuing years but there were plenty of "factory" sets that did not adhere to the dictates of the catalogs yet still sounded great and worked well for their owners. They shouldn't automatically be shunned.

*Mahogany/Poplar/ Mahogany (this was the cataloged layup, even during the time when the interiors were obviously clear maple...oh, silly Ludwig, this is why I love you so), Maple/poplar/maple, Mahogany/poplar/maple, maple/poplar/mahogany.

tfhsrtbersbsrert

FWIW, K.O., I followed your post & agree 100% with all you say. Thanks for your expertise; you know your stuff......marko

I'm not out to call anybody anything.

Just ranting a bit I suppose. Some of my examples are rather outlandish but that was to prove a point. No one would likely pair a 18" floor tom with a jazzette sized set...but they could if they wanted to, that's the point.

I wasn't actually trying to reference your original post but rather the vintage drum world in general. As far as "hairsplitters" I'm not one of the guys who says that a set can't be this or that because it has an extra cymbal bracket on it.

Oh well, that's the problem with forums, things in writing don't always (ever) come across as intended.

And there we go......the whole reason I stopped coming here for so long has reared its ugly head again. DOH

Yup that's right, people arguing a stupid point back and forth that really means nothing in the large scope of things.

The OP asked if there was such a thing as a cataloged "downbeat set" with an 18" bass drum. Simple answer, NO. An 18" bass drum makes it a Jazzette kit IF it is 12" deep. Otherwise its just a custom ordered kit. That's the simple answer, and the whole thing should have ended there. Period. But no, people have to argue meaningless points over what qualifies what to no end. Mind Blowi

Stuff like this annoys me to no end, much like the "how much is my whatever worth?" posts that people come in to the forum with as their first post, never to be heard from again after that. You want to know what gear is trading for? Go do some research on ebay as to what similar auctions sold for. The catalog pages are all there in VDG......if you want to know if its a cataloged kit, go visit the site and look for yourself. If its a variation of a cataloged kit, then it is no longer a cataloged kit, now its a custom ordered kit. In the end, does it matter? Not to me. Go out and play them! That's the most important thing! Soap Box

Hmmmm ever hear of Elvin Jones? Sailing2

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