Thanks. I haven't forgotten the analysis work on the weights either. I've just been head down trying to make progress on my A Zildjian pricing updates. I'll try and get something up on these now. I need a break from pricing research.

Hi again Rainer,

After working through the weights of various parts which you supplied I decided I couldn't get your numbers to add up properly. I decided to disassemble and weigh my own Blue Olive badge 5" Supra (date stamped Dec 15, 1969) and my 5" Black Beauty from 2002. Here are the results. You will see that I get within 2 grams of the total (full dress) weight based on the sum of the separate parts:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2017/supra-model-1.png[/img]

I can't tell what is different about your weights, but they don't add up properly in the same way. In the case of your Acro I can only account for 70% of the expected weight of the full dress drum. In the case of your 6.5" Supra the sum of the components only account for about 75%. So I presume I am missing some things, and that's after adding back in estimates for heads and hoops (based on the weights of mine). I think we need to check over the definitions carefully. One obvious difference is that I include the knob in the tone control weight. But what else might be different? I don't see any weight for the butt plate on yours but if you included that in the 12 hole strainer weight then somehow yours ends up 4g lighter than mine which seems odd. If you didn't include the butt weight with your strainer weight then did you not report it? Any chance of getting you to create a table as I have which accounts for all the components plus the total full dress weight? x-mas3

The Supra has COB hoops, and the Black Beauty has steel hoops. Steel hoops are a little heavier. The other notable difference is that the butt plate on the Black Beauty is about 70g heavier. I'm not sure exactly when the design changed for the butt plate. The Blackface 2 hole P85 is also 20g lighter than the more modern P85.

In practical use my scale is accurate to about 2g. In order to get a more accurate weight for components like tension rods, I weigh all of them together then use the average. I did the same for lugs. In all cases the washers and screws which go with a particular component (say the 2 hole strainer) are put back into the strainer before weighing.

Once I get consistency in the weights of parts and the full dress drums I will move on to using the density of the different shell materials to double check on the bare shell weight. In the meantime I have confirmed the approximate 1.7mm thickness of the shell on my Alu Supra, but not with my more accurate micrometer (which is, alas, dead and needs replacing). It also seems like the modern brass shells are 1.2mm, so thinner than the Alu shells.

I've also got another set of steel and COB rims which I'll add into my comparisons.

I forgot to add this link to a previous discussion when a brass or bronze 6.5" supra from the same era came up.

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=57791

Again you will see some people who just don't want to accept that the bare shell weight settles the matter as brass not alu, even though there isn't a B or BZ or BR stamped in. In this case the owner also has a Black Beauty from the same period which doesn't have a B or BZ or BR stamp either. It is worth remembering that brass shells were definitely in production at this time, and one could be chromed and sold as a Supra rather than black chromed and be a Black Beauty. There may only be a few, but yours is not the first one to surface. With Ludwig, anything is possible.

So back from christmas ;-).

A Happy new year to all of you.

First Session will be tomorrow, i think then we can say what Material it is.

I will keep you guys Updates!Walking

She is a bit heavier than a Black beauty Full dress 90s snare 6.5x14

It`s not even debatable with bare shell on the scale as the shells are the same thickness.

Aluminum will never come close to the weight of Brass.

I just wish all you chart guys would use pounds and ounces.

I mentioned that some people still resist the notion of different shell weights because they do appear to:

followed up by

His use of language makes it a little unclear whether he means bare shell as well as full dress. And he's often joined by Ludwig-Dude who restates the same points but in different language again -- making things a little less clear becuase now we've got two slightly different versions. The man who has one watch knows what time it is. The man with two watches is never sure. :confused:

Here are the current thicknesses Ludwig say they use:

1.7mm Alu for Supraphonics

1.6mm Alu for Acros (so much for Acros and Supra shells being identical)

1.2mm Brass shells

1.2mm Bronze shells

1.2mm Copper shells

1mm Stainless Steel shells (I didn't know they were using Steel again)

These are in mm not inches because...that's the way Ludwig give them. I had to convert them to inches to use lbs/cubic inch estimates for weight of shells made from the different materials. What I don't know is the thickness of the early Super 400 shells with the seam, although from the bare shell weights so far it looks like there might be two different weight ranges. That could be down to different shell thickness or some other uncontrolled factor.

I'm currently waiting on delivery of a new thickness gauge so I'll be able to measure my two metal shelled drums accurately. Alas, I don't have a handy 60s or 70s Acro to measure to see if there was a change in thickness over the decades.

I don`t think ludalloy is aluminum then, ten and as half pounds is like, a lot for a snare that is not Brass, Bronze or Copper. VM2K knows his sh*t.

Did you drop your micrometer ? It`s done first drop and quite expensive too.

The other full dress 6.5" Supras in Alu I've got weights for come in at about 7.8 lbs. I don't know why VM2K has one which in full dress weighs the same as a Brass or Bronze one. But he claims it does. In order to delve deeper we would need him to disassemble it and weigh all the parts as I have done in those spreadsheets I've given above. For now, this result is unique to him and this one snare of his. Everybody else has one which weighs what we would expect for Alu so I wouldn't get too excited about Alu Supras not being Alu.

My micrometer was one of those electronic 6" deep throat ones and the electronics died. I'm replacing it with a 12" deep throat (for measuring larger diameter cymbals I need the extra reach) but not electronic this time. Good old mechanical.

So after the ear Test, comparison to 402, sensitive, Ludwig Bronze and Black beautys, a b tests (Done by 2 professional drummers) the Result is, that this snare is Alu.

It is very close to a 402, but it is not Bronze or brass!