That sort of stepped lathing is found on some Italian cymbals. I've watched a production video and you can see the UFIP guys doing the lathing in distinct steps with a brief pause in between.

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/ItalianLathing.jpg[/img]

The area in the red circle shows another feature found on Italian cymbals. There can be zones of very fine lathe chatter. The diagnosis of chatter if from master cymbalmaker Matt Nolan who has observed it happening on his own lathe. Although these Italian cymbals tend to be hammered, it can sometimes be very broad and shallow are hard to see (or photograph).

Another test of Italian origin is the diameter. They tended to make cymbals in a metric diameter so instead of exactly 14" they will be 35cm (slightly undersized). On the other hand, if 13" they will seem full sized because 13" is 33.02 cm. But you do have to remember that other manufacturing regions (China and Turkey) also produced undersized cymbals too, so simply being an undersized 14" is not diagnostic.

Thanks for your expertise, Zen!!

Both cymbals are 13-15/16" in diameter...I can see faint hammering when held up on an angle to the light...

What kind of value would you put to them?

Cheers

Sorry but I haven't collected any data on prices for these. Here's a similar pair with 16 watchers

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-UFIP-ITALY-RotoCast-Hand-Hammered-CB700-14-HI-HAT-CYMBALS-NICE/162677522135?hash=item25e055fed7:g:cjEAAOSwOKZZlqa~

but nobody has sprung yet at $99. But it does give another view of the stepped lathing along with the made in italy ink stamp.

Looking at completed listings, wetting my finger and waving it in the breeze, and consulting my A Zildjian hat pricing I'm thinking $60 - $80. It depends on how fast you want it to move. These Italian cymbals are very nice sounding (I have a pair myself) but they can't compete with that Zildjian brand name. Those of us who know how nice they are keep an eye out, but the lack of clear brand info means most people aren't interested.

This is exactly the info I was seeking...Thanks again!!

Cheers

Zenstats, the above image was a no name cymbal that I once owned. I The photo was from the seller on ebay. I posted it online after buying it. I was hoping to get some help identifying it before it arrived. We all thought it was a UFiP of some sort, but I can asure you that that cymbal was not a UFIP. It was a B20 cymbal, but it was some sort of a WUHAN. I'm certain it was not a UFIP. I just wanted to let you know. We should stop referring to that cymbal as a UFIP.

Here's my old, paper thin UFIP pyramid stamp, 50cm (20"-ish) 1557 grams

This cymbal has the "stepped lathing" My 15" CMI hats have similar grooves.

BTW, I think the cymbals in question are indeed Italian and they look like they could be B20. The top lathing looks like the bottom lathing on my CMI hats.

Just to clarify, I might have said Italian but I wouldn't usually claim UFIP as the specific company of origin unless it could be positively identified as coming from the UFIP factory. But it's most interesting to hear you say it turned out to be Chinese in origin. How did you decide that?

I've got some other Italian cymbals photos which do have their Made In Italy ink stamp on them so I'll see about annotating one of those and switch to using that as an example of the stepped lathing. It wouldn't surprise me if the stepped lathing turned up on Chinese cymbals, as I've already got examples of it on other brands.

Interesting looking 20" pyramid stamp. I've got 3 of those myself and they run from light to very light: 1836g, 1725g, 1675g. The two lightest ones are from the earlier era of steep sided bells and obvious over hammering:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/ufip-ride-2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/ufip-ride-1.jpg[/img]

Underside of 15" CMI bottom Hi Hat.

Would you happen to know anything about a cymbal trademark that features some sort of insect? I have posted a thread about it in the vintage cymbals section. It has me completely stumped. I'm think it's something similar to a Zanchi which also has an unusual trademark. The cymbal in question also has stepped lathing.

Cheers