Could be, but I haven't seen that and I've been watching Gretsch for a while. Most of my experience is from watching ebay and not dealers so maybe its different there, but I haven't seen much price difference between 3 and 6 ply Gretsch on ebay. They are almost the same thickness on Gretsch shells - for a while during the transition Gretsch was even mixing sets from the factory with the different plys.

Why didn't you buy the cameo coral on ebay - didn't like the color?

Lots of interesting comments here.

The Midnight Blue kit for $3300 was an anomaly, and the 1 feedback bidders are certainly questionable. You never know what is going to "speak" to buyers...it could be that the little set list that was included with the auction was enough to really set off a few bidders. Little things like camera angles, color, the way a description is worded, etc, can really give people the fever, and make them decide they "have to have" something. The other kit selling for over $2K is definitely a good sign...I remember 3 ply 22-13-16 in Midnight Blue having trouble topping $1500.

Traditionally 6 ply Gretsch kits have been more desirable than 3 ply...there was a time not too long ago when 3 ply kits were cheap, usually under $1000 for a 3 piece. I know a collector that only bought 3 ply kits for a long time because they were so cheap. But recently they've really become more desirable...in Japan they now sell for more than 6 ply kits. And I agree about "That Great Gretsch Sound" being the 3 ply sound - Blakey, Philly Joe, Max, Mel, and many others made many of their most famous records on 3 ply drums.

The good news is that I think the market has certainly hit bottom and is turning around. Things were brutal back in maybe March...unheard of low prices on what are usually top sellers. It was a long, slow summer, but the prices picked up little by little. When September hit, sales went through the roof out of nowhere, and now it's stabilized a bit. In March I don't think either of those Gretsch kits would have topped $1200.

As a dealer, it's always difficult to come up with prices...there's no vintage drum "Blue Book." Some sellers will see that Gretsch kit at $3300 and use that as the standard, even though it was an anomaly, and wonder why their kit won't sell at that price. No matter where something is priced, there are always naysayers as well as people that think it should be priced higher...the only true guide is the price at which something actually sells.

mlvibes this is really, really interesting. I thank you for the time you have taken to discuss this from the front line. I appreciate the input of the rest of you all as well. VDF is a great forum.

You know what this says to me is that vintage drums more than any other market are susceptible to very whimsical changes. That's because we have the same drums --Great Gretsch Sound -- in everything from gold satin to copper mist. But they all sound more or less the same. So a wrap dictates what the premium value is.

Tomorrow a drumming sensation--jazz or rock--could turn up with the most "hideous" finish and in 13/16/22 and the whole market could change.

=> I did get the point about the Ludwig 6 plies. But there are more differences than just plies once the switch over occured in the 70s? Plus, come on by that time in the 70s everyone had started towards the abyss, no?

No I thought it was pretty darn cool. Like a coral pink. I just didn't need a 6 lug Gretsch snare. Note: I only saw 1/2 a cameo coral. Some owner along the way had painted the other half grey. It was actually a pretty good job, although still a pity.

I kick myself for not having pulled down the photo for the archive here. I cannot find it now in the completed listings no matter what I do.

mlvibes, I'll second the thanks for your input. Maybe you have a sense for the relative value of the super-rare finishes: if a "common" finish (for a 22-13-16) is $1500-2000, then how much is an "unobtainable" finish - Cad green, copper mist, cameo coral?

Knavel - here's a pic of an ultra-rare Cameo Coral snare, one of the few in this finish I've seen. This was in a local Guitar Center for a long time, overpriced, until they final were willing to come down in price and a local collector bought it.

[IMG]http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/gre_cc.jpg[/IMG]

No problem, glad to be able to contribute! In my opinion, the value of the ultra-rare finishes really depends on sizes, and mostly on condition. The buyers that pay huge amounts of money for Caddy Green, Copper Mist, or Green Sparkle (IMO the three most desirable Gretsch finishes), really want primo condition. Caddy Green and CM do not look nice unless they are near mint, and this is reflected strongly in their values. I bought a CM 20-12-16 kit last year, so-so condition, on ebay for $1400. It didn't meet the reserve of $1500 so I threw out an offer. I was thrilled to resell it for $2400. However, if it had been near mint I would have asked for $5K. For a CM or Green Sparkle 20-12-14 w/ matching snare in near mint condition, $7500+ would not be out of the question. For the same in Cadillac Green, double that and more. The famous near mint Caddy Green kit that was bought for $15K was eventually resold for much, much higher than that. But if it had been scratched up, worn, extra hole or two, etc, it would be a $5K set, plus or minus.

Of course, these prices assume that you can find a buyer with deep pockets...just because someone like Charlie Watts might pay $35,000 for a Top Hat and Cane kit doesn't meet that the next one will be worth that much...the one currently on ebay is not selling for $17500. As noted, the market is very whimsical, especially among the high end "big players."

This is really great stuff mlvibes and your candor is highly appreciated. I may buy "retail" for the first time in my life from you (which is saying lot after almost 20 years and of dozens of vintage guitars and amps, and one Gretsch drum set :) ).

In addition to your views on the copper mist and cad green, many thanks again for yet another revelation: green sparkle. I had no idea it was up in the big leagues.

I am still a champagne sparkle man. Glad it's more ubiquitous.

PS - Big thanks for the cameo coral photo--definitely the one I saw on 1/2 of that other snare I was talking about. I see it picked up some extra holes along the way. That should go into the gallery for future reference.

PPS - Off topic but Guitar Center is a funny place. Uber mark up as you've mentioned, but then once in awhile they blow out something totally top end at a price far below their cost. There was a big hullabaloo over on the Martin guitar forum about a OM-45 Roy Rogers they marked down to $5K. Dealer on that was $7.5K and one (of the 83 "limited edition") sold on ebay not 5 days earlier for $6100!!

Funny how that is since its not a very attractive finish and the fact that its a student model drum with extra holes kills me too! I've got one in piano black finish (black lacquer) and can barely give it away! LOL!

Great info!! As a rule of thumb it sounds like a rare finish (copper mist, green sparkle) can be worth about double a common finish, assuming excellent condition. And a Cadillac green can be double that again or more, again assuming excellent condition. Fair enough?

The cameo coral is very interesting. If its so ultra-rare, what is its value compared to the common, rare and Cad green finishes? Is it the price of a common finish since most people think it's ugly, or the price of a rare finish because it's rare, or the price of Cad green or more because no one has ever even seen it? Or are there not enough out there to even be able to predict? Do you remember what that snare with extra holes was selling for before and after they lowered the price?