Yeah, Rick had a Gold record on the wall outside his kitchen. Not sure which album it was for. No drums in the apartment though. I guess he had a rehearsal studio somewhere. I probably knew where he practiced, but the last time I thought about this was 35 years ago. My drums were sitting in my living room with 3/4" gum rubber disks made from the cut outs of industrial gaskets, and sized to fit my drums so as not to disturb my neighbors.

Anybody can get two 12`s from trap kits and make hats of course, but these look same sig, hammer, stamp, color, lathe, and weight.

Bout these time lines, low boy`s grew into HH`s.

If you have a 12 on the pedal, would you want 12`s on your low-boy ?

I think you might be a few years off there OddBall. These aren't ancient low boys. They are later.

My data seems consistent with your likely price range Mark. Maybe you consulted my research. Maybe the sellers didn't.

http://black.net.nz/old-k/old-k-prices.html#13

There are beliefs about old K prices which aren't consistent with the only published evidence.

Don`t be too sure there Zenzs,...

....HH`s were what??, ten years old when these were made,... Plenty of lows still all over.

I believe that K Zildjian got into hats with 13`s+. Very hard to find to find anyone with a 13 before 60`s. There were 14`s for hats. I think after the HH took roots in the 60`s the 13`s and 14`s were made as HH cymbals.

Bill knows this **** off the top of his head, but he`s been MIA a lot lately.

I think these were made side by side or one after the other,.... and possibly for hats. That`s why I say they prolly the only one`s.

Since these cymbals were from 1959-1966 and modern format hi hat stands date to the very early 1930's, that's closer to 30 years before, not 10, as you suggest. I had a pair of 12 inch hats back in the late 1960's thru the early '70's. That size is still used by some people today and is not that unusual. I've even known folks who used 11" hats. As for "Plenty of lows still all over.", I doubt there were any lowboys in general use in the late '40's to early '50s which would be 10 years prior to the manufacture of these cymbals.

Additionally, cymbals for hats were not always marketed as pairs as they are today. Generally in the '40s and '50s most hi hat pairs were individual cymbals close to the same weight, individually selected in order to mate a slightly heavier bottom cymbal with a slightly thinner top one. As a result you could put together a pair of hats in any size you wanted. I've got three pairs of 14" vintage A hats from the '50s, and 1 pair of 13's. And of course, as stated above I had a pair of 12's back in the day. The weights of the top and bottom cymbals of these "pairs" differs only slightly.

"Very hard to find to find anyone with a 13 before 60`s." That's not correct. What's you source for that assumption?

Actually I didn't consult your research on this Steve. It was an educated guess based on prices 14" K hats sold for recently and then I extrapolated the price for a pair of 12's in very good condition. Since these were intermediates, rather than new stamps, I built in a little greater value. If the prices were close than it was partially luck.

That's great. It means your evidence is entirely independent of mine. When several independent estimates start to line up one becomes more confident of getting a handle on prices.

Yes, but educated or not, my guesses are still guesses. LoLoLoLo

Late 30`s and then you got the war. I traced down HH`s to the early 30`s but they didn`t start taking off til after the war. Big bands were fading and radio music was becoming popular.

I couldn`t find 13 inch cymbals in the 30`s 40`s but I`m sure somebody must have made some. I`m convinced the 13 is a HH designed cymbal. The innovations of mixing or matching was sure to follow. As for doubting the use in the 40`s and 50`s, that`s yours to make but keep in mind all the cats of that era still have sound effects gear from hollow dowels to the common crosscut saw.

You go look real close at those, same everything, I doubt the artist even put the marker down signing them. It`s more likely he was making product that looked and sounded the same and less likely they are Hats, but being how close they are in weight and color, and they way it looks like they were hammer tuned, I lean towards a matched pair.

It is very hard to find a 13 in the 40`s and 30`s I still haven`t. But I`m sure threre was,...somewhere.

That`s my story and I`m sticking to it.