Its hard to be sure whether the mellower sound of any particular vintage cymbal is due to earlier cymbal construction methods, the result of 40-60 years of playing, or the heavy patina that develops over time. It may be a combination of all three. Of course most collectors of vintage cymbals tend not to clean them in the same way that most collectors of antiques in general are not encouraged to perform any extensive cleaning. While no one can be certain of the impact to a specific cymbal if patina is removed, most people don't seem to want to take the risk of altering the sound of a great cymbal by removing it.

Yes dirt lacquer from sticks dust all this remains on the surface of cymbal and changes the actual sound it had as new. if You clean a cymbal you will not a sound change and that all because you are removing all residues that have sticking on there for years.

i have a 20 ride from 1976 and a set of hihats and a broken 16 crash all from that year and all i ever cleaned then with is the zildjian polish i bought back then too and i noticed no change matter of fact even after i clean them they look just a tad shiney not much (polish might be deluted after years )

sheddski

Ziljian Polish in reality does nothing, it like putting Brasso or noxon on a brass object. If you use a real polishing rough you will note the difference is cleaning. When Patina set in on any metal it tends to change entire structure of the metal and to remove no ordinary cleaner will remove. And to prove this theory to you take a corner of you cymbal clean it with your Ziljian Polish then put you finger print on it. you will feel it oily and note 2-3 days later that its stained again. This is because of the oils in this type of polish. When you use a paste polish the shine will last you 5 x longer and the sound will change because it removes lacquers and any chemicals used by company to preserve metals.

The patina effect is a matter of degree - the more patina the drier the sound. Having played many heavily patina'd cymbals it's not even a question if this is the case...it is the case.

The effects of chronological age and "vibrational" age are important as well. Mike Skiba wrote quite a bit about these things.

For what it's worth, I think it most certainly changes the sound of the cymbal. A lot of it also depends on the type of cymbal.

I had an old Tyrko Sonor 22" ride that was absolutely dirty, grungy and heavily patina'ed. I cleaned it up so it was shiny and smooth (no real grooves to speak of). It went from dry and dark to not as dry and bright. I sounded like a different cymbal, and I did not like it at all after I cleaned it.

I would think (just a guess on my part) that the smoother or less heavily lathed cymbals would be more effected by cleaning them (assuming they had been dirty or heavily patina'ed).

Anyone else care to chime in on the type of cymbal being cleaned?

I typically don't clean my cymbals. The only time I will is if I buy one used and it's very dirty or has lots of stick marks on it (or the previous owner used a colored stick and there was stick paint residue on it). Even then, I will only do that on "newer" cymbals (80's or newer). Anything truly "vintage" I won't, because of the aforementioned Tyrko incident.

On the "bright" side (pun intended), if you want the cymbal to brighten up and have more highs, you can do a quick, easy and cheap fix to get a "new" cymbal at your disposal.

Is this just cleaning with Paiste cleaner or am I missing something?

I think it is quite obvious that patina removal does change the sound (and thus patina presence does as well). When we remove the patina, our cleaning removes dirt/oil/all kinds of other stuff as well. So, while we can certainly testify to the return of the brights - and that we can certainly attribute it to removal of dirt from the fine lathing - I believe we all have other experiences that can at least say the removal of patina itself indeed changes the sound. To what degree vs. dirt removal - that is the mystery as this is difficult to objectively test.

That said - please check this out and (as a footnote, please advise) -

what I want to know is how to prevent the return of the patina!! Look at this old ride I have been cleaning in sections with Barkeeper's Friend - the process included an overnight - and literally overnight the patina/tarnishing is already returning visably!

Paiste protector (even on a B20) or Pledge comes to mind - are there any other ways to prevent the return of patina, as I want no part of it on my ride.

Thanks - and sincere respect and apologies to the patina lovers who may have found this hard to read!

I put a light coat of Lemon Pledge on my new cymbals. It oxidizes the bronze very slightly, just enough to help keep finger prints and other patina in check. In an old Modern Drummer, Paiste also recommended Lemon Pledge. I have tried cheaper off-brand versions, but didn't have any luck with them.

The only down side to the Pledge is that it makes the cymbals a little slick, so be careful no to drop them.

Later,

Matt

I always clean the tops of mine with Paiste cleaner as I don't like dirty cymbals.

The old Super Zyn and 5 stars I have go a wonderful golden colour as they start to oxidise again and certainly sound brighter when they are first de-grimed!

My modern cymbals are all Dream and they go back to as new when cleaned.