I hear what you guys are saying and you make some good points.

Mark - I don't think the 70's As are that bad. Of course the 50's era cymbals do sound very nice. I think after Ringo came along they lost that. Having said all that I would much rather spend the money on a 70's A than a modern (insert brand name here) cymbal of similar weight / size. I think what I always get with these Zildjians is that unmistakable sound that I'm very fond of. I wouldn't mind paying for that. I can get away with using my Avedis Zildians in just about any musical situation. I've played better, don't get me wrong, but old Avedis are just great, let's face it. And that's why I think they're so undervalued.

They are not undervalued for a simple economic reason. Things cost what the market will bear. The price of old A's is the proper price because that's what people who buy them are willing to pay for them. If anything, other cymbals are ridiculously out of proportion. Old Ks are, or were. in sharp demand and many are bought up by collector/drummers with other jobs, not by full time professionals like my son. There is nothing wrong with that, but old K's too are worth what they are worth ONLY because people are willing to pay the money. Of course this is also a result of their superior sound, but their limited availability is mostly what drives the high price. Old A's, on the other hand, are readily available.

Your thinking that the 70's As aren't that bad may be a valid statement. But "not bad" is not the same as great. My son and I are only interested in superior sounding cymbals and have passed up on dozens of mediocre vintage A's and even some K's over the years that did not possess the sound we were looking for. Modern A are generally way too bright, way too pingy and have a one dimensional wash. They are certainly usable, but they are not special. We want special!

Between the two of us we have some 35 -40 ride cymbals. If they aren't special we don't want them. In fact we will shortly be culling the herd and selling off around around fifteen or so cymbals including 7 or 8 old A's and an old K along with several other newer Bosphorus cymbals and a couple of K Cons. Most sound pretty good but they are simply not getting played. This is partially as a result of the recent acquisition of a set of the new Zildjian Keropes which are incredibly old K like at a fraction of the cost. Other than K Cons I never thought I would ever buy new Zildjian cymbals again. This series is remarkable.

BosLover - You're right about old A's sounding inferior to a lot of other cymbals. I play an Istanbul Agop 30th Anniversary and it's a much better cymbal, but old A's are still very good cymbals for a lot of styles of music. I don't know about the modern A's, but the old ones that I own don't sound too bright and pingy. They're not super dark sounding either. They would be somewhere in the middle and I think that is what makes them so versatile. You can get away with playing them in a lot of musical situations. I've not yet played the Kerope series, but they sound wonderful from what I've heard. They're expensive, but definitely value for money and worth the extra cash to have good cymbals like these.

I never said old A's sound inferior to a lot of other cymbals. Old A's are not generally as bright and pingy as more modern ones. I merely meant that many, if not most, of the '60s A's are priced accordingly and often don't sound as good as many cymbals from the '40s and '50s. There are plenty of great sounding '60s A's, I've owned a few, but there are also plenty of mediocre ones from that period. Zildjian sold lots of cymbals in the '60s, and as a result they are dirt cheap. However I'd rather have a Trans stamp any day. It's the during the '70s when A's really started to suck, IMHO.

You know, this really depends on what you're after in a cymbal. Your inferior might be someone else's superior. It depends on the style of music one plays and the sound the player wishes to try to attain. I personally like a lot of 70's A's but I'm of a generation that listened to rock music in the 70's and 80's. IMO this is a good time to buy 70's A's if that's the sound you like since they are affordable. I have zero interest in old K's. Not my sound and it's not because I have uneducated ears. It's simply not my sound. There's room for all tastes and sensibilities in this world and none are better or worse than any other.

Steve

well put steve!

mike

That's fine with me. Play whatever turns you on. I did say IMHO after all. When my son Dan plays rock gigs he uses a completely different set of somewhat brighter, pingier, more modern cymbals with less wash, but they cut well. He uses old Ks and A's as well as more modern cymbals like the Keropes and KCons, Bosphrous, Istanbul Agop, etc. for jazz, ballads, big bands, small acoustic ensembles, musicals and some pop. Their complexity excels on these types of music. Many modern cymbals are great for rock and highly amplified music but lack the subtlety and complexity of good vintage cymbals. I've known several rock drummers that have even use B8 cymbals from Zildjian and Sabian. They sound like absolute crap in my opinion, but there is no accounting for taste.

Life would be pretty boring if we all had the same tastes don't you think?

Steve

Completely agree. If everyone's tastes were the same we'd only need one set of cymbals and one snare drum instead of the 40+ cymbals and 9 snare drums my son and I own. How boring that would be! The direction you go in really depends on your goals and expectations. However, like with good wines, one can develop more refined tastes over time. Many young drummers haven't developed those tastes which takes both time and experience. They may just want something loud and brash and their purchases are limited by their pocketbooks so sound quality is often not the highest priority.

Based on some of the CL ads I seen recently you would think they were made of gold...