Good information and photos there, Oddball. Thanks for posting. I'm not sure if these cymbals are UFiP or Wuhan or what, but they're B20 I'm guessing.

Here is a video sound file that I made. Please excuse the one-handed playing. It was also very dark which I only realized afterwards, but it's good enough for you to have an idea of the sound. It's a little distorted. I used the audio from the camera. Check it out anyway.

The Hi Hats to the far left are Super Zyn 14" and the Ride Cymbal to the right is an Istanbul Efes Jazz series. The 16" no name crash is on the left.

Thanks for your input everyone.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P05xwp08faU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P05xwp08faU[/ame]

@Oddball I don't see what you see in the second and third photos, and I'm not sure of your interpretation of the photos from UFiP rotocasting. I only really see the marks in the first photo of the blanks. I don't know if they go all the way through the cymbal, although you seems to be sure. I've seen no evidence of what the structure might be like if you lathed away deeply. I've looked at photo micrographs of Italian cymbals at various scales and I haven't seen anything which might correspond to this "spotting", but I might pass on a link to the guy who does my metallurgical analysis and see what he has to say about the science. I rely on him because metallurgy isn't my area of expertise. You might be correct, but I'd still put the answer as "not yet known". Can you please annotate the third photo with what you mean so I have a better chance of understanding exactly what you are looking at when you say "The third one if you look close you can see the swirls on the finished product."

@Chromeo Note that the point I was making earlier (my post of the Paiste 602 bell which Jeff linked to) is that rotocasting marks might go straight out radially, but the artifacts of lathing might go out with more of a spiral to them. I'm unsure, and I'm wondering how often we don't keep things clear because of inadequate terminology.

I'm still not happy with our level of understanding. And I would caution you to go back to a previous thread you started

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=44958

and read carefully what I said about the dates for rotocasting and what we believe a pre rotocast cymbal looks. I just think it is important to attach to right level of uncertainty to our statements which otherwise sound well researched.

Zenstat, I really don't know what these no name cymbals are, but I'm happy that they're bronze at least. As for rotocast cymbals - I don't know what to look for or if there is a way to identify a rotocast cymbal just by looking at it. As I mentioned I have a UFiP Class Series Fast Crash which is definitely a rotocast cymbal because it's a modern UFiP, but I can't see anything on the cymbal that looks unique. Perhaps the lathing process does remove any of this "swirling" pattern that people often to refer to as rotocasting. Paiste, as far as I know don't rotocast their cymbals. I believe UFiP are the only cymbal makers to use this technology. I think UFiPs do show signs of "ripples" and not "swirls", but what do I know? :) I have some old UFiP hi hats with the pyramid stamp and they show signs of these swirling patterns, but according to Alberto Biasei the pyramid stamp UFiP were made between the years 1945 and 1960 and are entirely handmade and hand-hammered.

Getting back to my no name cymbals - I don't know what they are, but they're bronze and not brass so I'm happy enough with them.

Was there anything in that video of the cymbals that might lead you to believe these are some sort of Italian cymbals? Perhaps they are samples and that's why they have no stamps. Who knows? :)

Ditto. I have modern UFiP Class cymbals which don't have anything which looks unique. If by unique you mean ripples or swirls or whatever. See below where I get confused.

Nobody has ever suggested they did. It seems people may have missed my point. If you see ripples or swirls or something which you believe is evidence of rotocasting then think again because these same things can be found on cymbals we know are NOT rotocast. So the ripples or swirls or whatever can't be strongly diagnostic of rotocasting.

But didn't you just say that your modern Class ones don't have anything which looks "unique"? I'm getting confused by what you seem to be saying. What's a "ripple" vs a "swirl"? And does your modern rotocast Class crash have "ripples"?

Yes, and they are cast in a mold in the shape of a cymbal, but not rotocast. The mold was vertical rather than spun and horizontal. Both casting in a mold in the shape of a cymbal (gravity casting) and rotocasting are still unique to the Italian production methods as far as I know.

There are plenty of Italian cymbals which only had round (or square) ink stamps saying "made in italy" and once the ink stamps are cleaned off they become "unidentified". Beautiful strong sounding bells are one attribute they usually share if they are gravity cast or rotocast. The other thing which makes some say "Italian" for some cymbals is the look of the lathing. I'll see if there is already a photo in this thread which shows that.

** edit ** Yes there is. Both the bottom of the 16" and the bottom of the 13" (first two posts) show what is said to be characteristic "Italian" lathing. Fine lathing and concentric circles which are clearly visible where there are rapid changes from one ring to another. I've annotated your photo with blue arrows pointing to the zone of rapid changes in the lathing (looks "stepped" overall). I've also put a red oval around an area which might have "ripples", although it's hard to tell from the quality of the photo. You might be able to say more if you are holding the real cymbal.

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/ItalianLathing.jpg[/img]

zenstat, thanks for your help in identifying this cymbal. When I say there is nothing unique about my UFIP I mean there are no swirling patterns like on the Paiste we were looking at. However the UFIP Class has some waves and ripples, but I always assumed this was from hammering. I will say that there are some similarities between these no names and the UFIP class, but they're not exactly the same. The Class cymbal has an almost brilliant finish, or at least some type of protective coating whereas these no names feel a little rough to the touch. The colour of these is similar to the Class, but these are certainly trashier sounding. I posted more detailed photos of the cymbals that you can find here on this thread.

My UFiP Class has some numbers punched into it and some of the numbers are upside-down and the ink stamp was a botched job. It was a factory reject that I got for a low price from Jim Betsios aka UFIPMAN. It's definitely a similar looking cymbal to this no name save for the little upturned edge of the fast crash.

Here are those photos again of the ripples / hammering?

I've been looking at a number of older and newer cymbals lately where I see these radial lines. They really show up well when the contrast of a given picture is increased. I'm almost convinced that the appearance of "lines" per se is really due to the presence of some heavy hammering. I've seen something similar in Sabian Artisan cymbals. I see it as more of an illusion than actual lines. A similar illusion would be what I personally though were waves in lathe lines on my UFIP Class and Extatic cymbals. Then I happened to pull out an old cracked Paiste 3000 crash that I have sitting around. The 3000 was a short lived B8 line in the late 80's, sort of meant to be a sort of 2002, version 2.0. It has the same wavy lathe lines which upon close inspection are really just where the hammer dropped, denting and flattening the lathe lines in that given spot.

Long story shortened: Are those radial lines from casting (I would think not after shaving the cymbal down), or are they from hammering?

Again, a cymbal where the bell is thicker that the surrounding bow is a good indication of a cymbal that has been cast, rather than pressed.

Well, in the second pic on the far right row of cymbals you can see black spots on the bell and a few smaller one`s on the plane. My buddy who worked a foundry for most of his life says to me that I can think of them like sun spots on the sun. He explained that after the pour, they spin it while it`s cooling to give the metal a "grain" if you will call it. If you don`t spin it the cast will cool and have an orange peel type of look to it. The spots are different cooling rates and interrupt the grain.

If you run your hand across the black marks in the first pic, it`ll be smooth, you wont feel ripples because the metal inside the mold has no where to go and it packs together and gives it those swirl looks. He`s Brazilian and hard to understand a lot but explains things pretty well by comparing. If you take a ceramic drum stick and stir a spot on the hot cast, when it cools, all the cymbal will look the same except where you stirred it. you will see that "break" in the "grain" like a knot in wood. These casts are thin and easy to make spots or ripple all they way through.

If the mold changes speed while the metal is still liquid, you`ll notice those changes too. If it shakes while spinning, you`ll see changes over one`s that don`t too.

On the third pic I make the pic larger and look close at the bell and mid plane and I can see the ripples but the light is blocking a good look but you can see them on samples here all the time.

I read that story from UFIP but saved the pics. and not the story.

I`ve used a lathe a lot in my life and understand how that process works and can tell you with certainty that they don`t do the record needle thing with the tool. It`ll spin and be tooled, then the tool, product or both get adjusted to go around again, then step on the pedal and move the tool and go around again and at any time you can change out the tool for different lathe marks or knurls or whatever you are doing. If you do the record needle thing you'll get just that effect on the cymbal. The huge size and weight of the tool only to use the itty bitty tip is to control better the force applied (it`s own weight) or make fine adjustments in the cut. A little tool will fly out your hand a lot. A lot of cymbals I see used several different tools to go over previous cuts and get different results in the lathing.

This is not my field of work but it`s easy to understand if you use comparisons instead of terminology. Most marks are made where the air holes are or where the molds come together.

This is not my field so I`m trying to explain as best I can.

I showed him similar looking lines on Zildjian cymbals and he`s pretty sure that`s not done by the hammering. The hammer moves the metal but he thinks maybe they make scratch marks in the mold and after hammering you still see those marks when the metal is smoothened. Hammering give more surface area in the same space as one that was not hammered and makes thin and thick spots too. He just wasn`t sure how they do it. He did point out that the one I showed him was hammered so much that the grains go everywhere throughout the cymbal and the metal is stronger and will bend as opposed to a cast not hammered out will snap.

He also told me that when he inspects cast parts, instead of modern testing to determine strength, he would hang it from a wire and tap it with a object and the ring sound will tell him if it`s a good cast or poor cast. And I bet that`s how a good cymbal artist can change the cymbal sound at will using only his hammer.