On another forum they had a very similar thread that got quite heated. That one was based on the fact that the very expensive Ludwig 100th anniversary snare shell is made by a dude in Europe. I was kind of bummed they didn't at least attempt to make all these anniversary drums out of the US, but I guess this guy is the best at what he does.

Here's the drum in question:

http://www.goldtriumphal.com/

Ludwig's top of the line kit is reversion back to the 3 ply maple/poplar/maple of the early 70's . I applaud them for doing it as those kits sound great - but that is not innovation either .

Gretsch has had basically the same shell formula for the past 50 years . Why try and fix something that isn't broken ? I applaud them . But there is no innovation coming from Gretsch .

There's only so much you can do with a drum . Hardware a different story . You can make snares with various woods ( like Yamaha's bamboo and Canopus's Zelkova ) for instance ) e.g. Craviotto's Timeless Timber 600 year old wood shells ( I have a 4x14 birch ) , and cut various bearing edges , etc...but let's face it , there isn't much innovation left with regards to making a drum . The Japanese did copy a lot and improved upon some designs . No question about it . But their entry into the drum and auto markets gave US makers a wake up call . Some woke up earlier than others . Some never did . Look at the US auto industry . The home electronics industry . I'm happy as hell Ludwig and Gretsch are still around and producing top shelf stuff . But some credit must also be given to the Japanese who , while not being as innovative in the drum market as they are in the auto market , produce flawlessly made products with great attention to detail and QC , and also made vast improvements on existing designs . What's wrong with that ?

On side note ...Just 10 minutes ago a 12x9 Gretsch New Classic ( new ) in the vintage glass finish arrived at my doorstep . Paid $ 100 for it here in Japan . Heard a lot of good things about the NC series so couldn't resist checking it out for the price . Man oh man flawlessly made and sounds / looks fabulous . Now the dilemma - shall I keep it , hoping someday that a used 18 and 14 turn up on Ebay , or sell it to somebody who needs it for the price I paid ? Kiss

Pics of the drum .

This pic ( taken by seller ) doesn't do the drum's beauty justice .

I'm sorry, but innovation in home electronics and automobiles??? HAH! Where do you think they got the technology from in the first place? Radio, television, tape machines, cd players, amplifiers, record players, home computers, refrigerators, microwave ovens, even radar.....all US inventions and developments. Electronic fuel injection, abs brakes, four wheel steering, even electric vehicles.....all invented and developed where? The USA. Japan may seem to have better quality, but in reality it is a level playing field. It has to be in this day and age or you won't survive. I have yet to see any real inventions come from japan. Name one modern consumer product that wholey originated in japan, just one thats all I ask, then I'll back down. Not an improvement on another idea, an actual invention.

BTW...since we're on the subject of quality in japanese products....how is your Toyota truck frame doing right now? Oh ya, thats right.......rotted out and being recalled through out the USA......when's the last time a GM, Ford or Dodge truck frame was recalled for rotting out? Hmmmm......never that I can recall.....

And while we're on the subject of japanese recalls.....how's your Tama throne doing? Oh ya recalled too......never heard of a DW or Ludwig throne being recalled, have you? Hmmmmm

Soap Box

Btw....that is a sweet looking drum and I know it sounds fantastic as well......a good friend of mine bought a set of those for his recording kit.....I think I'm being converted to Gretsch slowly......:D

jazzbo,

I think you are right about there being only so much you can do with a drum anymore. The options have kind of been exhausted. That's also one of the reasons why I like vintage Ludwig drums. Ludwig, in many instances found "the" way to make drums. They tied all the style appointments together, for one thing. Two other examples of "perfection" would be the Acrolite and the Supra, in my opinion. What could anyone do to a drum to improve on those two designs? I can't find a thing. Like all things related to drums, it's all subjective.

As nice as some Pearls and Tamas and Yamahas are, they just don't make me feel the same way when I play them as I feel when I play a vintage American kit.

Maybe it's that some musical instruments are magical and made by the magical people who used to do things by hand in the old factories with antiquated-yet-magical equipment. Maybe that's it. Who knows? Maybe the crooked and lumpy drums are still magical. Maybe that extra hole under your tom mount was made by a real human who was capable of making human mistakes and then doing a very human job of covering it up by sweeping it under the rug. Maybe that hole happened during a time when these objects were not considered as important as they have now become. After all, people back then used to often take the bottom rims off and nest drums inside one another and throw them into the back of the psychedelic painted van and set them up on damp outdoor fields and flatbed trailers. Things like QC in regards to drums wasn't the top priority -even in the minds of the people who played them. Drums were not thought of the way a fine violin would be thought of....or a Steinway piano would be thought of by a classical pianist. Drums, back then, were not coveted items among a vast field of collectors.

But, today, with the advent of drum collecting, people tend to scrutinize things they collect. They often want to try and have the finest example of things. It's only because of the way we have changed our own perception of these things do they now get noticed.

To be fair, many of the early Japanese "stencil" kits were P's OS with their splintering luan shells and slipping hardware. I owned a Tempro set for my first kit and so I can attest! In those days, even the lumpiest Ludwig was a million steps up from a Tempro!

But, as you say, the times have changed. What could be done to a drum HAS been done -many times over. And now, not much changes. A drum is a drum is a drum , for the most part. So where do we go since we can't go forward any further? Well, maybe we go back. Maybe that's where those quirky things can still be found -where the inexplicable and magical drums can be found. ?

About a year ago I bought a new classic Gretsch kit in granite sparkle. I love this kit!! Wonderfully made and records like a dream. I think it will be difficult to find separate drums to complete your set, but at least it's the "vintage glass sparkle" finish-which is still being made and more common. My set is one of only 60 kits made with the black finish which would make it almost impossible to find add on drums. Great if you can find the additional drums in that price range.

Here's the kit:

You should be able to sell it here in US for more than what you paid .

Hate to burst your bubble but quite a few of the technologies that you mention were not developed in the USA- the technology behind the compact disc was first developed by Sony in Japan, and was further refined by a joint venture between Philips in the Netherlands, and Sony on Japan.

Magnetic tape recording was developed in Nazi Germany, and the first practical use for magnetic tape recording was so everyone could hear Hitler's speeches. Tape recording did not come to the USA until after WWII.

The first practical Television broadcasts in the 1920's were also in Germany, and serious development in the USA did not appear until the 1930's.

Radar was jointly developed by most Western Nations and the Soviet Union, first practical system was actually developed by the French and installed in 1935.

EFI- first used by Alfa Romeo in 1940 in Italy- but Bendix was the first commerically available system in 1957- but was a monumental flop. Bosch was the first company to market a reliable EFI system in 1967, and the first GM EFI system in 1977 was basically a copy of the Bosch system.

I understand (and share) your pride in USA made products and inventions- but is wrong to claim that we are all about invention and that Japan just copies. The USA has a LONG history of taking technology that was invented elsewhere and refining it, as well as most other industrial nations- part of being a world power is realizing when something is good regardless of its origin and making it better.

However we also have a long history of technological turds- there are just as many recalls with our automobiles (how about that long run of Fords in the 1990's that just liked to go on fire), or our dismal attempts at making small diesel engines (anyone remember the 350 Oldsmobile Diesel of the 80's?), or the truly horrible Cadillac 8/6/4 of the 80's as well.