Ok. BREAK. Go to your neutral corners and rest. You've given the paying crowd their money's worth. American companies make wonderful drums. Asian companies make wonderful drums. We drive what we drive. That's what makes the world go 'round. Well....actually Einstein proved it really had nothing to do with money or with brotherhood. It was more closely associated with large body affect and the non-linearity of time and space. So, I guess when you get right down to it...none of this really matters.

USA Walking USA Walking USA Falling Do

Subtle...very subtle.

Spoken like an ALL American drum owner . Soap Box

I agree that Ludwig's QC was less than today's general manufacturing standards. Computers have really enabled far greater accuracy and consistency when it comes to mass manufacturing.

However, I feel that modern raw materials and designs are often inferior and made-to-break. There are plastics that are engineered to "oxidize" (for lack of a better term). It's very apparent when you consider that some plastics are virtually indestructible (take for example the blue plastic used in making those huge water bottles used in office water coolers). While the little plastic tabs that are used to hold your dashboard together, will break down when exposed to too much sun. Can you imagine? Of all places to use a photo-sensitive plastic, huh? -the dashboard of a car!

Beyond all the imperfections of Ludwig in the old days, I still believe they are better drums. They look cooler. The way the lugs, throwoffs, badges all integrate and echo the style of that particular company in all the "little" details, goes beyond what occasionally went wrong on the old production line. Ludwig produced more drums than any other company during that period of time. They certainly produced more truly American drums than any other company.

But, yes, in the mid-1970's, the game changed. There were undoubtedly pressures placed upon the "old ways" of building drums. Eventually, the old ways faded out and were replaced with new ways. The Japanese had their efficiency-thing going on. America took awhile to re-learn how to compete that way. That game was a foreign game -like ping pong. There is a learning curve. But America learned how to play ping pong so-to-speak. And now, because of the nature of the game, companies like Pearl are at the top.

When I see a set of Pearl drums on stage, it doesn't do anything to me. When I see an authentic old vintage kit (lumps and all), it does something. It makes me listen closer or something. I know. I know..."nostalgia". But nostalgia is real, too.

I, myself, am kind of "lumpy" myself, these days, too. I have had a few extra holes drilled into me over the years, too. You dig? :Santa:

But, yes, I hear what you're saying, jazzbo. In many ways, you are right on.

Thank you for understanding .

BTW - I am NO fan of Pearl drums . Own one snare - a 50th Anniversary snare that a grateful Japanese drummer ( for whom I searched and found some rare drums ) gave me ...and I've never played it ! Still fresh in the box with all the paraphenalia it came with ( bag , key , signed paperwork , etc...) .

Thanks, but that ain't me. If you were to check out my YouTube page, you would see me thrashing away on a Pearl Master Mahogany Classic Limited Edition kit with a Yamaha Birch Custom Snare. I've owned and played most every make out there. My first kit was an early 60's red sparkle Luddy. I was two when I started hitting 'em. I've owned Ludwig, Gretsch, Tama, Pearl, Yamaha, Slingerland, Sonor (just sold my snare), Fibes, Kent, Premier (one of my faves!), and a few others. Up until just the other day, Rogers was about the only missing link. I've got that one now. I'm not the snob you might suspect. I just have a sick and twisted sense of humor. My Yamaha Birch Custom is for sale on this forum right now. I play what sounds good to my ears. I'm not brand-happy nor am I brand-loyal. The only endorsement I've ever agreed to was with Sabian. That lasted for one year and was disappointingly limiting. There are just too many good drums out there to hit....cymbals, too! I've known many a Ludwig/Zildjian men who missed out on so many good sound experiences because of the self-imposed limitation. It worked for them and that's cool. They were happy. But, that's not for me. It's not an either Asian or American choice. It's a "does it heat your heart when you hit it" kind of choice. That's my two cents.

By the way, I drive a Chrysler PT Cruiser and a Toyota Corolla.

Cool man .

I was (mis) judging by this :

...all kits in various stages of restoration...COME ON SUMMER!!!

1971 Slingerland Buddy Rich Outfit No. 80N in Mahogany Lacquer finish

1971 Ludwig Super Classic in Gold Sparkle finish

20th Century Ludwig Mutant Jazzer Club Date (undecided on finish)

1969 Rogers (hobo rust) Londoner in Silver Sparkle finish with rare optional spider webs

Sumo Dude

That's alright. It would be very strange for me to list all my equipment. It would also be rather egotistical. I have recently sold off some of my "modern" equipment. I even sold my custom Roland kit. I did keep my HandSonic 15, though. That thing is totally cool. I have changed gears and am rediscovering my drums of the past. Hence the big push to pick up a handful of vintage kits. I was just letting you know from early on that people were about to react to your statement (the "gauntlet" comment). I realize it was innocent, but this is a passionate bunch. I could see it coming. I figured if I warned you to just let 'em vent without reacting or saying anything, it would eventually blow over. It didn't work out that way. Kevin's USA statement cracked me up! That's why I mentioned it with the guy falling off the chair and then said "subtle, very subtle". It was a message to Kevin. That guy cracks me up. Great sense of humor. So, no harm no foul. Take care and keep us posted on that sweet Ludwig kit you just picked up. Looking forward to some progress pics of that one. Later!

I agree with the post several posts above.....the Asian market wouldn't be what it is without the USA showing them how to do it right after world war II.....all they ever did was learn how to reverse engineer to copy whatever the product was....first they copied the British, then the USA.......all they do now is refine those copies.....where's the innovation? Every popular japanese pedal on the market today is a copy of a Camco pedal, which is a refined copy of Ludwig's original 1909 pedal. Every hardware stand is a refined version of a Rogers swivomatic or memriloc stand. Every top end Japanese drum is now made of AMERICAN maple.....anyone see a trend here? WHERE'S THE INNOVATION? Its a level playing field now, so get over it. USA is making a comeback, and lookout!

I don't have a horse in this race, but this conversation brought a question to my mind. Can we really still consider companies like Gretsch and Ludwig "American" in the context of this conversation when a majority of what they sell is made overseas?

OK, I will say one other thing. The Japanese didn't exactly invent reverse engineering. If William Ludwig I hadn't seen the "Tom Mills" snare and decided to make his own version, you might very well have been Sonor-dude instead of Ludwig-dude. Innovation is always evolutionary. No one creates in a vacuum. Just a thought.

I give you the evolution theory....but I still ask where's the innovation from Japan? I don't see it.....