Only Admins can see this message.
Data Transition still in progress. Some functionality may be limited until the process is complete.
Processing Attachment, Gallery - 133.06889%

Paiste 602 Thin Crash value

Loading...

I have seen quite many 602 hihat tops with radial cracks crawling in from the edge - often not only one crack, but several.

In Denmark, a sole Sound Edge bottom is not worth much, as they are quite plentiful compared to complete hats.

Now, this alone doesn´t proof they are especially vulnerable - it could just be that they are on the market because a) people keep their complete hats b) they are not simply thrown out like cheaper bottoms would when their matching top cracks.

No proof.

But - I think they must be vulnerable, especially because of their pattern of not one crack but several.

As to why - they are generally rather thin, and most I have seen crack are Sound Edge tops. Now, that may be because they are the most plentiful, but could also mean that being on top of a Sound Edge bottom puts extra stress on the partly unsupported top.

There are not many thin 16 and 18" crashes left here - but were there ever many, at those prizes?

Zanki were a lot cheaper, probably more plentiful, and some are left. But they also tended to die at some time - maybe B20 is just a brittle material, that crystalizes at some point if treated just a little harshly?

Zildjian A´s are and were always more plentiful - how many of those have gone?

To me, the reason for percieved different survival rates could just as well be manufacturing differences in the hammering processes, in the tempering, in the exact alloy, in the shape the cymbals were given, in the (mis)use they were subjected to.....

I still haven´t seen any concrete pointers that the cracking - if it is more pronounced on 602´s than on other B20 series - should be because Paiste treated B20 in a way it wasn´t suited to be ("rolling it in one direction", "Stamping them out of sheets") and that differed from the other manufacturers, excluding the italians.

They differed by casting the bell too - but they also crack, so.....which cymbals doesn´t crack or crack markedly less?

Jon

Posted on 11 years ago
#51
Loading...

From troutstudio

So as far as I'm concerned, the people who disparage Paiste's method of manufacture; or durability; are simply repeating rhetoric which suits their own religion.

Then try reading: "The Making of a Drum Company: The Autobiography of William E. Ludwig II"....and specifically the part about the Paiste 602's. Then maybe after you get educated you can come back here and try to make that statement.

Posted on 11 years ago
#52
Guest
Loading...

From Drumaholic

Then try reading: "The Making of a Drum Company: The Autobiography of William E. Ludwig II"....and specifically the part about the Paiste 602's. Then maybe after you get educated you can come back here and try to make that statement.

Here is a google link into a couple of pages of that book (the relevant ones -- thank you Google)

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=EGPe-1PnezAC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=ludwig+%22The+Making+of+a+drum+company%22+Paiste&source=bl&ots=wWv33DPWm1&sig=Px0H80fHAS1l2CJxmcjYp2Rfwvg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OfBdUsmyJcS6kgXU24HQDw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ludwig%20%22The%20Making%20of%20a%20drum%20company%22%20Paiste&f=false

searching on the string: ludwig "The Making of a drum company" Paiste

in case that link doesn't work for others.

The story is quite funny (except for the big loss Ludwig took). It sounds like B2 and Bob Yeager (of Pro Drum Shop in Hollywood) made a trip over and convinced Paiste the 602s were too thick and they should make them thinner. Wonder if that started the problem? I certainly don't know.

Posted on 11 years ago
#53
Loading...

From Drumaholic

Then try reading: "The Making of a Drum Company: The Autobiography of William E. Ludwig II"....and specifically the part about the Paiste 602's. Then maybe after you get educated you can come back here and try to make that statement.

Ludwig asked Paiste to make the cymbals thinner (according to Wm. Ludwig II) which they did, and they broke from being hit too hard (according to Robert and Toomas Paiste). - page 78 of the book The Making of a Drum Company: The Autobiography of William E. Ludwig II

Posted on 11 years ago
#54
Loading...

From ivmike

Ludwig asked Paiste to make the cymbals thinner (according to Wm. Ludwig II) which they did, and they broke from being hit too hard (according to Robert and Toomas Paiste). - page 78 of the book The Making of a Drum Company: The Autobiography of William E. Ludwig II

The Zildjian Co. had been making their cymbals in jazz weights for Ludwig since at least the 40's. No million dollar loss re-imbursement was necessary with Zildjian. The start of the mass breakage problem was when Paiste started supplying Ludwig with their series of "thinned down" cymbals made in weights comparable to Zildjian. And therein lies the heart of the issue.

Posted on 11 years ago
#55
Loading...

From Drumaholic

Then try reading: "The Making of a Drum Company: The Autobiography of William E. Ludwig II"....and specifically the part about the Paiste 602's. Then maybe after you get educated you can come back here and try to make that statement.

My first post was about the current value of a specific cymbal. Your answer to that post was :

From Drumaholic

Why does it have top be another blue label 602?After this one failed on you why would you buy exactly the same cymbal for another $300 just to risk having it happen all over again. That sounds too much like throwing good money after bad. Do yourself a favor next time and get a cymbal made from cast B-20. Sheet bronze is structurally inferior to cast.

As soon as I saw that post, I thought "not a player". Because every good player I know would never say something like that about another player's choice of sound. So I already knew you had no chops.

After this post, I know you have no manners either. So when you get some, come back and talk to me mate.

Home Of The Trout
YouTube Channel
Posted on 11 years ago
#56
Loading...

From troutstudio

My first post was about the current value of a specific cymbal. Your answer to that post was :As soon as I saw that post, I thought "not a player". Because every good player I know would never say something like that about another player's choice of sound. So I already knew you had no chops.

This player would. And I know where that "not a player" crap came from too.

Posted on 11 years ago
#57
Loading...

From Drumaholic

The Zildjian Co. had been making their cymbals in jazz weights for Ludwig since at least the 40's. No million dollar loss re-imbursement was necessary with Zildjian. The start of the mass breakage problem was when Paiste started supplying Ludwig with their series of "thinned down" cymbals made in weights comparable to Zildjian. And therein lies the heart of the issue.

In the 40s, did cymbal companies offer warranties? I seem to remember seeing several K Zildjian price lists stating that warranties were not offered on their cymbals. Read the price list below to see what I mean:

[IMG]http://www.tbrucewittet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/K-and-A-Zildjians-Gretsch-Catalog-1950.jpg[/IMG]

So even if "millions of dollars" of cymbals broke, the drummers that broke them were S.O.L.

And 602s were aimed at jazz markets; Joe Morello happily used 602s from 69 through to the 90s.

Posted on 11 years ago
#58
Loading...

OK - now I told about the relatively many 602 SE hihat tops I have seen with cracks.

Here´s my own Pre-serial 602 15" Sound Edge-story:

I bought the pair around 1982, played punk, new wave, heavy metal, indie and rock´n´roll on them for more than 25 years - no cracks. I tried a smaller hat, liked it a lot, got a great offer on my old hat - and sold it. Lame

I have had other 15" 602´s since (the internet came and changed my ways of buying gear completely), none as nice.

So - they don´t necessarily crack easily. Then again, I never cracked a cymbal.

Back to the OP - a nice Pre-Serial 18" thin sold for around 250$ here in Denmark a couple of months ago. I´d guess a Blue Stamp would be the same or little more.

Jon

Jon

Posted on 11 years ago
#59
Loading...

I have played lots of Rock on my 602 plates...never broke one.....

"Always make sure your front bottom BD lugs clear the ground!"
Posted on 11 years ago
#60
  • Share
  • Report
Action Another action Something else here