Thanks, I am up with that. All I can say is that Ludwig still make Supra's too ;-)

Actually, side by side, the new 602's are pitched differently, because they are thinner, like the red/black label klangmeister they probably used. So if I get a new one, I'd have a different sound interval in my set of thin crashes. That seems to be pointless. If I buy a new Paiste B20, I will probably go with a Twenty Series, which I like a lot. Gerry Porter says he hasn't seen a blue label crash for a while. But I have folks on the lookout in Europe. One will turn up.

This whole discussion reminds me of cymbalholic.com - the only drums that matter are a set of old roundbadges and istanbul k's. Yeah right ;-)

LOL! It does sometimes take on that jazzy-ish, "you either love it or don't understand it yet", mindset...........

While reading this thread, the fabled "Ludalloy" came to mind as well, as something that is probably easily identified, but maintains somewhat of a mystical presence in music lore................

They may be new....

But they sure ain't blue...

That's it! I do love the logo! Also, I love every other drummers cymbals from out the front. It's what makes the musical soup so tasty - everyone makes it different. Which is great.

pk

Let's break it down, then:

For the original poster, there was this:

For your remark that Paiste "touts their Sound Creation alloy as a big secret" I posted this:

Actually, you might mean the "Paiste Sound Alloy". The alloy was created and patented (I've seen the patents posted on various site before) so it wasn't a "secret" per se, as it was intellectual property that other makers were not allowed to use without compensating Paiste for its use. Now, the patent has expired and the alloy is free game for anyone to use.

There seems to be some discussion in various thread as to the manufacture of said Paiste cymbals (see Zenstat's posts) so I ended my post with this:

And one thing; Paiste receives circular blanks from its supplier, much like many artisan cymbalsmiths do, such as Matt Bettis, Matt Nolan, Craig in Australia, Michael Paiste, and many others (in fact, Matt Nolan and Michael Paiste occasionally source their blanks from the same foundry as Paiste). The cymbals' profiles are then hammered into shape (for the pro lines) and pressed into shape for the student/budget lines.

As for 602s being prone to cracking, it seems that it's the pre-serial 602s with the heavy die stamp in them that would be prone to cracking; I had a set of 602s from 1971 that had a die stamp pressed into them that you could easily read from the other side of the cymbal; that's a recipe for breakage; its now the weakest point of the cymbal.

That's only speculation, not based on evidence. The cymbal that started this whole discussion was a blue label. Maybe Zenstat could do a statistical analysis of this phenoma and then get back to us in ablout a decade.

Just so everybody is clear on the boundaries and nature of my pricing study, it won't ever contribute anything to our understanding of breakage. It doesn't provide any information on rates of breakage either, which is why you won't find me commenting on rates of breakage.

The purpose of my study is to get a data set which I can use to examine some particular estimation methods in pricing studies. I needed a data set which I can make freely available to other analysts, so they can replicate my results or apply different estimation methods. It doesn't matter whether the data is about cymbals or not. I just happened to look at cymbals because I was interested in them.

The reason the study has gone on for a number of years is that one aspect of the estimation methods includes time series data -- for which you need enough years of data. It is a happy coincidence that Paiste re-issued the 602s along the way so that we can also look at what effect this had on the prices of the older ones. It is a further happy spinoff that because I collected weights (as one input to the predictive price modeling) I have been able to supply lots of weights for almost all of the different models of 602s and Sound Creations. And finally, it is great for me that I've been able to supply well documented information to people for insurance purposes, pricing purposes, and even to the estates of famous drummers so they know what to sell the collection for. I take great pleasure in making data useful.

A year or two into my data collection I noticed that severely damaged cymbals (beyond your flea bite, moderate keyhole, and the like) usually fetch $30 - $50. In order to simplify my data entry task I quit keeping track of them. They are excluded from the survey. You can read this exclusion in the text of the tables. Thus no useful information. Outside the scope of the research.

Getting data from eBay completed sales (and other sales channels) would be a very poor way to try and estimate the proportion of cracked and severely damaged cymbals. Thus no useful information. Outside the scope of the research.

The study of why cymbals crack is an entirely different one from price modeling. It would take place in the materials science lab, not on eBay. That is outside my area, although I'm always happy to consult on matters of experimental design and data analysis.

The suggestion of a non destructive method for estimation of element (copper, tin, gold, silver, phosphorus, etc) proportions is an interesting prospect. If somebody with access to the equipment does the lab work I'd be delighted.

The evidence is that this was the 602 that I described was distributed by Ludwig in the late 60s and early 70s (not the blue label version) and it is the one that they complained about having to replace under warranty.

O.K., but where's the evidence that the trademark had anything to do with it?

I've seen cracked pre-serial 602's before and not even one of them had a crack that had anything to do with the trademark.

When looking for evidence, I rely on first hand knowledge, if possible. My first hand knowledge is that I've played 602's, pre-serial, red, black and blue labels in every conceivable type of musical situation since the day Elvis died. Their "inherent weakness" has never been a factor. I've played them on TV, about a thousand sessions (yes, they used real drums on jingles once) stage shows, and the rest. They were never marketed as rock cymbals. Rock was 2002 and that's what I played in very loud bands, with no problem at all. I'm still playing a pair of black label 602 hats from 1978. So as far as I'm concerned, the people who disparage Paiste's method of manufacture; or durability; are simply repeating rhetoric which suits their own religion. But I've learned you can't change anyone's mind over 30 about anything.

My OP was answered, by the way, by Gerry Porter of hazelshould, who probably know just a bit about cymbals, having sold thousands. He would love to get his hands on an 18" thin 602 crash from the blue label era but say's people are holding on to them. Price range: $250 - $400 US depending on condition. And may I say, worth every recently rescued cent. ;-)