O.K., just forget about all that other stuff.

I got your 602 crash cymbal.....right here:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vplXka4I3Vs[/ame]

And its played with an 8A drumstick. Perfect choice for a cymbal like this.

Thanks guys for the ufip opinions,,,and Trout,,,,,,you just keep playing your Paistes,,,,,they are nice cymbals indeed. We have to play what we like..if not,,it would not be any fun.

Yes that true.

Are the way Paiste makes their B20 602s so much different than the way the turks and Zildjian makes their B20 cymbals?

I know the rotocasting tchnique used by UFIP/Zanki involves casting including the bell - but from reading Pinksterboer, I understood all other B20 cymbals are made from cast slivers of bronze, then stamped into the general shape, hammered and then lathed.

It sounds like you know differently?

Jon

Paiste buys B-20 from a vendor in sheets. These are uni-rolled; that is being rolled out in one direction only.

Turkish cymbals are cast from ingots that after being heated are run through a rolling mill and then re-heated and re-milled over and over each time in a different direction. This process of milling in multiple directions creates a billet with a complex interlocking grain structure. The result is bronze with increased resilience and greater strength properties.

Paiste's cymbals, being made from bronze rolled in one direction only which results in a less resilient bronze with less mechanical strength. Cymbals made this way are more prone to cracking because they have a basic linear grain structure.

And that is what gives them their sound. I think I prefer sheet metal cymbals for crashes. I have plenty of cast cymbals from Paiste since back in the Pleistocene era, I was an endorsee. They sound great too. Cymbals are a very personal thing of course...

Bill, I got into BIG trouble with Calfskin over this for asking him what his evidence was for the one way rolling claim. Are you able to present your evidence? Maybe it would clear things up.

My evidence for multi way rolling comes from Pinksterboer p215

In context (hope the link works like this)

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=AaSH0JLRct8C&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=pinksterboer+%22rolled+in+different+directions%22&source=bl&ots=eFdt1cGnEu&sig=NIOcphkHQiFWF661od5odEMEAYY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qjpbUqaDN8iulQXr4oGICQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pinksterboer%20%22rolled%20in%20different%20directions%22&f=false

Now Pinksterboer may have it wrong, or have been "tricked" or "misled" by Toomas Pasite when he was interviewing him.

Note that I'm not questioning the idea that they crack more. My issue is just with the what the scientific explanation for more cracking might be. For example, how do we know it isn't a tempering difference?

Paiste themselves say that the B20 cymbals arrive as blanks (not sheets). Are they just trying to fool us all as well? I'm reluctant to bring this whole thread up again, but it seems to be the same "sheet metal" and "rolled one way" topic:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=39004&highlight=sheet+metal

If you don't want to wade through the whole thing, there is a direct link to what Paiste says (if you don't want to read the whole thread).

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showpost.php?p=261579&postcount=33

Bill, are we to dismiss all this as Paiste PR in the same way you dismiss Zildjian sourced PR (by observing that Zildjian don't know their own history or choose to tell stories as it suits them)? And if we are to dismiss what Paiste say as just PR, where do we come up with independent evidence?

There is certainly enough opinions around on who does what. As far as the strength of the final product, I have seen as many cracked Zildjians as any other cymbal. As far as the sound goes, I just use my ears.

Now zen - forget that crap - what's an 18" thin BL worth? :-)

I'm back. I took a holiday in the real world.

On file I've got these sales (sorry for the poor formatting -- I can generate a pdf which looks nice if you like):

fo602 18 crash thin 1620 blue ebay 21-Dec-06 $375.00 2 bids

fo602 18 crash thin blue ebay 04-Feb-07 $250.00 -1

fo602 18 crash thin nick blue ebay 01-Apr-07 $224.50 8 strong

fo602 18 crash thin blue ebay 10-Jun-07 $299.00 0

fo602 18 crash thin rivets blue ebay 29-Jan-08 $162.50 12

fo602 18 crash thin 1500 excellent blue ebay 13-Mar-08 $356.00 20 strong

fo602 18 crash thin crack blue ebay 09-Apr-08 $70.01 9 present 2 half inch cracks

fo602 18 crash thin excellent blue ebay 11-May-08 $316.55 20 strong

fo602 18 crash thin 1485 excellent blue ebay 18-May-08 $337.50 25 strong >teatatubaz

fo602 18 crash thin 1452 excellent blue ebay 22-May-08 $375.00 -1 strong

fo602 18 crash thin 1535 excellent blue ebay 19-Oct-08 $395.00 22 strong

fo602 18 crash thin excellent blue ebay 11-Feb-09 $226.49 5 strong

fo602 18 crash thin excellent blue ebay 25-Feb-09 $282.99 7 faded

fo602 18 crash pthin excellent blue ebay 25-Jun-09 $449.00 13 strong

fo602 18 crash pthin excellent blue ebay 15-Feb-10 $428.77 15 strong

fo602 18 crash thin 1488 crepair blue ebay 05-Mar-10 $307.08 1 strong uk

fo602 18 crash pthin excellent blue ebay 08-Mar-10 $355.00 1 strong

fo602 18 crash thin 1520 excellent blue ebay 06-Jul-10 $225.00 1 strong 8 rivet holes

fo602 18 crash thin excellent blue ebay 28-Jan-11 $299.00 1 strong

fo602 18 crash pthin excellent blue ebay 23-Feb-11 $325.00 14 strong

fo602 18 crash pthin 1330 excellent blue ebay 28-Jul-12 $325.00 1 gone

fo602 18 crash thin excellent blue ebay 23-Jan-13 $500.00 1 strong

fo602 18 crash thin excellent blue ebay 26-Jan-13 $167.60 6 strong remspeedwagon 8 rivets

fo602 18 crash thin excellent blue ebay 03-Mar-13 299 2 strong

fo602 18 crash pthin 1280 excellent blue weight only 24-Apr-13

In summary, once you knock out the two cracked ones they range from $162 to $500 with an average of $317

The lowest prices (say under $225) had rivets so they might keep the price down a little. Plus the one with the nick got less than $225 as well.

The good news is that a few turn over each year on eBay (or in places where they come to my attention).

Notes on the data: in the bids a -1 means it went on BIN. A 0 means that it didn't get a bid (but it may have still sold -- we can't really tell).

Ha. I was running my database in the other widow while you posted.

And when I say I'm not questioning the "conventional wisdom" that 602s crack more, it's just that I want to focus on the science of why some cymbals crack. I don't want to get into arguments about whether one brand/line cracks more than others. I don't think we will ever get agreement there either. But I keep trying to tease out the evidence and the logic of the arguments.