...unclear at this time due to lack of conclusive evidence. (you did ask a statistician for an answer)

The 602 line was discontinued in 1989 not 1969.

http://www.paiste-only.com/paistewiki/index.php?title=Formula_602

Spinning: Without photos of what you mean, I can't really follow what you are saying about fine curved radial lines. I think there might be some benefit in following it up, but it won't tell us about 602s and Germany.

We broached the radial lines subject already in trying to get to what precisely it is that people think is a sure sign of being "rotocast". Here:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=37602

I'd say this is another area where we would benefit from clear illustrations of just what we are talking about. That's why I'm such a stickler for people documenting how they arrived at a decision, not just announcing the decision.

Thanks Calfskin, for filling out the picture of how you have tested different cymbals. I think we agree that the 602 material is harder and more brittle. We disagree over exactly what this implies about the production process. I say we don't know because we lack sufficient evidence of the secret proprietary process (and secret proprietary isn't just Paiste of course, Zildjian plays the same game). Are you convinced by the evidence you have that "sheets" were only rolled one way in the mill? Is that the key difference? Or do we leave things in an "unknown" state and just say 602s were harder and more brittle and breakage was a problem but we don't yet know why.

One interesting followup will be to see if the relaunched 602s get the same sort of reputation for cracking that the original ones did. We might have to wait a few more years to hear. You haven't by any chance had a look at the new 602 material to compare it with the old 602 material?

Well Guitar center f----- up again.

They didn't send me a used 602 like the listing said they sent me a 502 .i knew something was wrong when they said the 602 was made in Germany . (The pics were not up yet)

There ya have it folks .

Never mind. We had a good discussion and I'm learning new things. That's what I like. Thank you Guitar Center for not being able to read numbers. Guitar Dude Man

I'm always learning new stuff also. Was interesting how involved the thread got

.

I might be a little sleepy - but do I get it right:

Is Calfskin of the perception that Paiste 602 are stamped sheetmetal cymbals like 2002´s and not cast like for instance A Zildjians or Zankis?

And that they are not (some kind of) B20 - like A Zildjians and Zankis (without me postulating they are 100% alike anyway)?

If so - are there anywhere else (on the internet or elsewhere) that backs up these perceptions? I haven´t heard anyone else proposing this before.

Regards

Jon

With regards to the old ones.

---- since Paiste has never claimed that Formula 602 cymbals are cast and has publicly defended using sheet material for cymbals , because at some time in their minds sheet material is cast anyway and therefore is the same as cast, then it seems highly likely that they are not cast. Paiste seems excessively secretive about their production methodology.

The concept of cymbals being made from B-20 bronze, is like the concept of Kleenex. It is a much used blanket terminology, valuable in separating classes of cymbals such as B-20 in opposition to B-8 etc. etc., within a general context. In practice how ever , most of the better cymbal makers must have tweaked their base material( as well as their technique), to get their signature sound and since the 1980's most of them are using numerous tweaked alloys and techniques, in order to duplicate a competitors sound with a certain series and grab some of their market. It is reputed that the secret formula of Zildjian( both of them?) included silver. Well, that isn't B-20 bronze anymore. If K. Zildjian was at one time using surplus telephone wire for copper-----that stuff isn't pure copper----it is a copper alloy and due to it's age , probably full of impurities---probably even had a bit of lead in it; well then K.Zildjian wasn't using B-20 at that point either. Paiste uses and acknowlwdges the use of Phosphor Bronze and the signature series has such a brilliant colour and high note that there is no way that that, is the same material that goes into a rotocast Zanchi for instance.In fact the crystal structure between the two is so different, that under the microscope one looks like the Himalayas and the other like, the Shanghai container port. My point is , that the use of actual B-20 bronze in cymbals is probably a lot rarer than one is lead to believe. Sabian ,actually stamped their made in Italy( Tosco) line B-20. One might conclude that they were in fact that but also conclude that the made in Canada Sabians weren't.

Based on the crystal structure and colour of the older Paiste 602 cymbals that I have investigated, as well as based on their extreme freedom from flaws and impurities, I can easily see those cymbals originating from a highly purified proprietary alloy, probably manufactured as sheet material. Clearly the alloy is a form of bronze but even Paiste , giving it the designation Formula 602, indicates that it must vary somewhat from a classic 80-20 bronze formula.

I agree that Calfskin has a unique perspective. His use of terminology is unusual, and his claim seems contrary to the standard references like Pinksterboer in The Cymbal Book. So I can see why you might wonder if you are a bit sleepy.

There isn't any credible published evidence that I know of for the "602s are pressed sheet metal" theory, unless you count that Zildjian ad campaign...

The evidence I mentioned above in my post from the 27th of July (and above).

The more current Paiste production video:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TspRNjbAew[/ame]

I much prefer the classic one :D

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cPGpSp_GI[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D1s8Kj8T6w[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKZEyXM5ZiA[/ame]

(you can find the rest if you wish given these links)

The Zildjian ad about "cookie cutter" or "pressed out of sheet metal" cymbals in two forms. I put the persistent misinformation about Paiste cymbals down to these sorts of ads. A very effective ad campaign, but clearly mischief making...or should I say "economical with the truth"? From Modern Drummer:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/zildjian-cookie-cutter-ad.jpg[/img]

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/zildjian-sheet-metal-ad.jpg[/img]

Disclaimer: I don't have an axe to grind in any of this. I've got my set of USA Zildjian cymbals which I love, my 602s which I love, my various cymbals made in Turkey which I love, and my UFiPs which I love. They are all different. I'm just trying to get clear on what the claims are and what the evidence is and how these are related.

None of which says anything about German a 602, which turned out to be a 502...

It can happen that you find 602 with a stamp Made in Germany.

I remember an issue of 20" 602 ride, I've seen the pic of the stamp. The guy received email from paiste:

"Thank you for your e-mail and sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

We needed some time to clarify your question.

By reason of a distributed capacitance we’ve some Formula 602 which have been finished in Germany at the end of the 50ies.

They were annealed and hammered in Switzerland and Paiste Germany has completed them. That’s the reason they

have a stamp “made in Germany”.

Are you happy with this answer?

Kind regards,

Customer Service

Department

Paiste Switzerland"

I think this answers to your question

Good!

I will let it be at that - and despite possible smaller amounts of other metals, I will continue calling my Paiste 505s B8, and my Zildjian As, my Zankis and my Paiste 602s B20 until I see a good reason to call them something else.

Paiste not wanting to disclose the actual melange is to me not a very good reason to call it anything else.

And that Zildjian ad was probably pointed more at stamped B8-cymbals than at Paistes 602 anyway.

Jon