Those were some really lite and thin cymbals and it's amazing that they never had cracks after all those years. Those weights almost seem like they would have made some nice sounding crash cymbals???

Thanks!!!

They were ok as splashes but / to light together...needed a heavier bottom

Never cracked/quality was great / ,,

I have a small Zilco splash that's cracked. It still has a great trashy sound. I call it my "Trash-Splash" It's a cool little number.

Until A. Zildjian repatriated the K. Zildjian name, they were producing cymbals from a more highly refined metallurgy, more even milling,more precise hammering and finer lathing and contouring , than any K.Zildjian could ever have had. ---and that was to produce a completely different cymbal than a K. , with a much more refined and impurity free sound. Of course A. Zildjian hoped that drummers would respond to that level of perfection of the cymbal maker's craft but they didn't. With serious musicians, ( outside of popular music) almost everywhere, K. Zildjian held the throne and held it and held it. Of course, A's sold like hotcakes, primarily due to the burgeoning popular music industry but it must have been disconcerting, to always be second fiddle, producing cymbals that were in many ways the epitome of the cymbal maker's art yet be upstaged by a product that in some cases ,looked like it had been made by a 5 year old, with uneven crude hammering and lathing, a pointy, crappy , sometimes crooked bell and often uneven thickness from one side to the other.

The funny thing is, that the closest cymbals A. Zildjian ever made ( up until the Canadian and EAK K's came around), to a K. were the Canadian Zilcos, which were physically and sonically closer to Turkish K's than any A has ever been. If you can't outcompete the competition on their own terms, what better way to attempt to diminish them, than make and advertise a second line , that is similar and make sure that the emphasis is put on second class.

The early Azco Zilcos had the slightly trashy sound, dark wash, with a not too shrill ping and pointy appearance of a K and they were fully hand hammered too. They have to be one of the better bargains in vintage cymbals today but at 300.00+ $, for that pair , they apparently do have a following.

By the time Kerope and the Turkish crew arrived in New Brunswick, Zildjian had what they wanted and could go to town making real K's , so the Zilco line was downgraded to a spun cymbal line. There are two Azco Zilco cymbals out there, hand hammered and not hammered at all( spun). You have to know which ones to look for.

Do you have any reference to the metallurgical analysis which found this contrast in purity? I'd love to hear some evidence based discussion about this plus the other interesting ideas you raise.

Also of note for readers wishing to see and hear more of Zilcos, there are some at Maxwells.

http://www.maxwelldrums.com/vintage-paiste-spizz-cymbals-other-vintage-cymbals-c-232_483.html

And The Cymbal Book by Pinksterboer has a nice writeup on the different production periods of Zilcos. Of course, I couldn't say whether new information has come to hand since that was published. I haven't seen any myself.

No. but looking at the growth of the cymbal industry over the past 50 years or so, there are a few trends, especially amongst the big 4----5 if you include UFIP, which has a significant influence. It's pretty easy to extrapolate from that.

Impurities in the base metal, whether they be charcoal residue, other unwanted inclusions or small amounts of oxidized, sulphated or residual other metals , collected from recycling are one of the main causes of cracking ----possibly the main cause.

Cracked cymbals , are often covered under warranty. No company wants to cough up new product to cover warranties. The marketplace for cymbals has been undergoing a continuous flow towards consistency and the companies promote that, by virtue of releasing an ever more complex array of cymbal models.Sixty years ago an A was an A---with minor variances due to weight and bell formation. Now, the need for precise formulation and predictability is so important because each company has an array of models, which are pitched at the competitions models. Endorsers , endorse the predictability of a cymbal, as much as the character. Impurities , cause character and reduce predictability and that's why the belief in a cymbals individuality was paramount in times gone by. That expectation in new cymbals , is decreasing in leaps and bounds. Meinl uses almost exclusively( except Byzance) precision, sheetstock ----almost everything is computer controlled. Durability, precision and predictability are the market now and everyone must keep up or get left behind.

UFIP via Zanchi, is a telling case in point. The wisdom attached to the practice of rotocasting was , to spin the impurities to the perimeter, so they could be removed ,yielding a more consistent product. That , benefit wasn't lost on the other companies.

K. Zildjian , didn't cease to exist because nobody liked their cymbals. They ceased to exist because their production methodology and inconsistency became impractical in the modern world. When production was shifted to the modern world , and when the original artisans , lost control of the production , very quickly their charm was lost because there was an ongoing intent to maintain the look of a K but increase the predictability. The cymbals became more consistent and ****genous and I'll bet there are a lot fewer warranty claims.

Hey Gary

I came across a set of hithats that are zilco, from the 50's. I brought them to a local shop and was told they were used in schools often as a student type of model, but Ihave to tell you these are the sweetest hihats. Great for jazz, real light and I love em. Cant tell you what they are worth but the are killer!

I have a complete set of Azco hand hammered Zilcos; 14" hats, 18" crash and a 20" ride. They really are first class cymbals. The overall essence of them , is that they have a sort of satiny quality, right across the range and it kind of gives them a muted and darker sound. You can tell that the materials and craftsmanship are top of the line but the profile of the cymbals is somewhat more conical and I think that is the cause of the shift in their sonic quality. A similar thing takes place in the Zyn line, where there was a whole series of cymbals ,in all sizes with a more conical profile. The cymbals sound completely different( I have , or have had 10, 12, 12 inch hats, 14 inch hats, 16 and 20 inch versions), even though the sheetstock material seems identical and the rings of machine hammer marks are the same too.

In the case of both makers , it was a very clever and inexpensive way of using the same material to fabricate two separate lines of instruments and declare them as different in the marketing of them. In the case of Zyn , the descriptors were, Thin and Medium. I have never seen a Zyn stamped Thin , that had the rounded bell and flattened gentle bow, typical of the Zyn Standard or Medium Zyn lines( where the profile was much like a normal A. Zildjian). They have all been cone shaped.

In the case of Zildjian , the profiles of the hand hammered Zilcos have a flatter arc to the bow ,with a fairly conical bell.Sometimes , due to the rather high level of lathing, and smooth tonal grooves, the hammer marks are not all that apparent. Acute angled light shows them up , usually.

The spun Zilcos had a more conventional profile but due to their, more pedestrian origins in material and construction , they have a whole other character, typical of bronze cymbals derived in that fashion and I don't recall seeing even regular machine hammer marks on them and the tonal grooves and hue of the bronze are more extreme.