I`m not say`n you`re right or wrong, I agree with your posts, I just think that the lathing makes the most differences !i

I agree that lathing is significant -

though from cleaning this 16 - and now being able to see the cymbal much better - I would have to say it is either the thickness at certain parts of the cymbal (which I have no calipers to measure) or more likely the hammering, as the other 16 crash has very little minor hammering comparatively.

Bunch of these cymbals are for sale by the way......

John

I believe that I (we?) need to differentiate between tone and wet/dryness as I may be confusing these. With my clean 16 now - (what I have described as mellow and drier it is more like a case of brighter and drier, though when recorded these sound much wetter than in person (that's why I was so impressed when I recorded these - better cymbals than I thought).

Of course - then you can get into what they sound like up close verses from a distance....cymbals - such a complex topic!

John

That's a much easier way to compare two profiles when you have both cymbals in your hands. I use it myself when I compare two cymbals. I guess I was thinking of letting us know what the actual measurements were so I could then compare profiles with some which I've got. Excellent suggestion.

I suspect that the lathe tool "skipping over" or going less deep into hammering "craters" is unlikely to get us to the 70g-80g we're looking for all on it's own as the factor. Perhaps if we were comparing a Turk (unlathed) cymbal with a completely lathed one (at the 16" diameter) one would remove that much material. But we're only talking about the smaller difference between two fully lathed cymbals, one with more variation in the "surface terrain". But I don't have data. We would need to get a tame cymbal smith to lathe one cymbal with very little hammering vs one cymbal with lots of variation in the "terrain" and weigh the two cymbals before and after. We could also weigh the two different piles of shavings (as a cross check). But now that you phrase it this way I can see what you are getting at. Sorry if I was a bit slow to see the relevance.

Which isn't yet known as I type this. I don't think we can assign an order of relative importance to "effect of grime", "effect of material thickness", "effect of taper", "effect of lathing if more hammering" for these two cymbals just yet.

I did think the dirty one was more hammered and said so, based on the first two photos which were comparing lathing. But interestingly, now that it has been cleaned (scroll down in this thread) I find the degree of hammering seems a bit less to me. But photos and lighting can confuse me now and then.

It is a very complex topic. How far down the rabbit hole are you wanting to go?

For me washy...dry is that scale you call wet...dry. So it is having a lot of wash or being dry (lack of wash).

I'm not sure what tone would be. Are you talking about perceived pitch? Or something on the cold...warm scale? (note: for me that scale is embellished with other terms such as cold/metallic/icy...warm/woody -- but I know different people talk about these terms quite differently).

One reason I'm interested in your topic is that I have 3 UFiP cymbals which are quite different in terms of wash/dryness. Yet they are all light 20" cymbals (very light compared to modern UFiPs at 1675g, 1725g and 1836g) and the heaviest is the most washy. Not how I would have expected things to be (other things being equal). But other things aren't equal in the case of my three, and I suspect that the differences are in profile, bell shape, bridge abruptness, and hammering. I mean I know that there are differences in the physical properties, but I suspect they are the cause of the quite different sonic properties.

I'll give some examples (photos and sounds) later on if there is still interest.

It`s definitely heavy hammered and that shine is good for a day. The finger prints will be there the next day, and within a week, the whole thing will tarnish in spotty areas, couple months and it will need to be cleaned again to shine. I`ve done the cymbal cleanning thing before !i