101 isn't discontinued. 201 is. They're both uninteresting beginner cymbals.

602 has been re-started and they're awesome crystal-clear jazz cymbals.

Stambuls were made from NS12 and B8. I have a B8 ride and it's rather nice, mellow cymbal. Good for oldschool rock and beat and stuff.

Never really heard any others so I can't say anything about them.

I've owned several of the 505 ride cymbals years ago. Some 505 hi hat pairs also - used them on some small combo jazz gigs, rhythm backup for piano, and recording and thought they were OK. They would 'bottom out' if I pushed them beyond "moderato" volume. They did, however, fall into the category "professional quality" cymbals. The 505's never sounded to my ear as nice as the 2002 or other high end lines. I currently own a pair of 14" 500 Series cymbals made for BAND use with handles but I use them as hi hats for playing metal, etc... [available should anyone want them-just pm me] They also are professional quality, a little heavy for my tastes overall. Definitely B8 alloy products. Years ago owned a 20" Giant Beat crash which was pretty nice except it went dead every time it rained! Not kidding. Never could explain it but it happened. Eventually sold it. In general I find all Paiste's to have"weak" bells but usually a little more defined "stingier" pings when compared to the best old Zildjians. They do project clear and clean when miked up and amplified. I know these are all rather vague concepts in describing sounds and quality but unfortunately that's what we're all dealing with when discussing sonic characteristics and such nebulous descriptions as "wash" or "dry", etc. In the final analysis personally I could care less who made it or where it was made, what's stamped or not stamped on it, or how much it weighs - either they're good, great, or they're not. I'll always want to purchase and add a cymbal to my setup if I play it and it sounds great! In conclusion, I still haven't made any meaningful statements describing cymbal characteristics! LoLoLoLo

Ok - I'll spill my secrets (why people buy vintage Paiste). Disclosure - going to limit to what I have owned/flipped at one time or another.

My first exposure to Paistes were a set of 400s in the high school jazz band. Upon research last year, I discovered that they were a brand new line at the time we bought them. I thought they were decent, but was aware that they were not the best Paistes out there. I wish they would have bought 505s at the time - which are a bit better.

Now, some may say I am crazy, saying that 505s are only a 'bit' better - but the fact is.....of the 400s....they are made of the same alloy - but, in Paiste fashion (which makes them so good at making cymbals) is that the lathing is different. There are many Paiste lines with the same 2002 alloy - but what makes the difference is the lathing. I actually like 400s and think they are actually very good cymbals - but beware - that they simply sound different. I don't think they mix all that well with 505s (for example) as there is that distinct sound difference - but I must qualify - that I believe they are better described as different when comparing to other lines (as opposed to better or worse).

Now, 404s - these are sleepers, but you must know the difference between them and 505s or other better quality cymbals. Fact is, the 404s were the bottom of the barrel at the time - but the reason why you still see them going for some good dough now and see pros using them (many jazz cats) is that they are thinner and therefore darker - but don't think they are dull sounding at all. I have some 404 crashes and they are bright as ever and very cutting - as that's just it - they cut like crazy - best way to describe them is that they are very focused with a more narrow frequency range and therefore less complex as the 505s. Don't be fool to think that 404 crashes are not as good as the 505s, but know that they are less complex and much more focused. The 404 ride is a particularly good cymbal, though I do not have one. Value per dollar - way up there.

Sound Creation and Dimensions are awesome, though I can not describe them like I have the 404s - but their great quality is reflected in their price.

505s are simply great......not too different from the 2002 (and in fact some prefer them to the 2002s) - but this secret is OUT and they are priced as if they are gold plated 2002s. Only buy if the seller has no clue or could care less how much they get out of it. Of course, you may get lucky and discover them in a flip deal (or any kit for that matter) you are buying - as that is how I discovered the 505s in the first place - and now my 505 is my main ride, replacing a 70s Zilly A.

Don't waste your time with 200s - all brass I believe. 302 HHs are surprisingly good, as long as they are the later generation (change year 1998 - with the scribbled font that sometimes people misread and try to sell POZs or SOZs (you get the idea - quite humorous actually!)

1000s, 2000s, 3000s - all great, but they have their own characteristics (read up on them at Wiki-Paiste- 3000s were heavier I believe.

Lastly - the easiest way to learn about Paistes without finding some huge collection of them to check out in person - is to view videos on Youtube by Terry Keating. His username there is bonzoleum and in my opinion is that he should be employed by Paiste - he is that knowledgeable.

John

+1 on Terry/ Bonzolium

thanks guys very helpful.

In B8 alloy I have had Giant beats, Dimensions, 2000, 2002, 3000, 505, 404, 502, and some cheaper Rogers branded paistes.

I also have modded, hammered, lathed and heat treated 2000, 2002, 404 and 502s. It is not just lathing that makes the difference in these cymbals. Other things that effect these lines: Bell shape and size, bridge transition, bow, cymbal weight, thickness and taper, pressed "hammering: vs hand guided machine hammering, pressed lathe marks vs actually lathed surfaces,

And what I think is a predominant element, but have no actual proof, just subjective experience; how the cymbal was tempered. I have found the metal in the lower numbered series to be considerably softer under a hammer, and have found that torch/heat treating 502s and 404s hardens the bronze a bit under the hammer and brightens sound considerably. It is "common knowledge" (Which may be wrong) that all the B8 alloy Paistes are the same metal... maybe, so this is why I speculate differing levels of tempering

In terms of the sound from these lines, I have found that all the B8 series mix and match well. The 502's to me are more brash and very loud, and I have preferred the older 502 bronze vs the recent SOZ. the 404s I agree can be sleepers, they tend to be thinner than 505 and 2000, 3000 2002, series, the 2002, 2000, 3000 and dimensions are all higher end, I guess I'd say a bit more refined in overall sound, but not by a heck of a lot.

Also agree Terry Bonzoleum's info is great, though you need to set aside a chunk of time to get through all his rambling.

Terry is informative and entertaining at the same time.

Mountainman you sure have a collection of cymbals, I hesitate to ask how many in your inventory. wish you lived near chi town would love to see a collection like that in person.

Mountainhick,

I would love to hear more about heat treating cymbals. Is this possible to do without hammering? Can brightening these (404s is what I am discussing here more than anything) be done simply by cooking them in the oven?

The max is 550 F in my oven.

I am quite happy with my 404 SE top over an Amir (1stgen) bottom, which is high pitched. At the same time, the 404s tone could use some brightening. They are already thin, and I have been taught that the thinness is what has given them their darker/warmer tone as well as their softness. Since they are already thin, I would not want to do any more hammering, especially since I have no way to do controlled hammering and I have read many horror stories about home hammering completely ruining the sound of a cymbal. One would immediately wonder about damaging any finish on these when heat treating. If you really don't care about that, I suppose you would be golden.

John