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Cymbal Crack/Repair questions

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Hey guys,

I have discovered that if cracks can be lived with, or repaired, it can save a great deal of money. I do not have a Dremel yet, so I have not gone about repairing (yet) some cymbals that I have. Could you all answer me some questions, so that I do not waste any of my time, money, cymbals, etc.

1) What is worse/better, a horizontal or vertical crack? (In other words, cracks in the lathing groves, or perpendicular to them)

2) Would patching it up work - with super glue, like with a coin or some tin? Best metal or coin to use?

3) How are cracks in the keyhole repaired? I have read of guys doing this - wonder what they are talking about.

4) What is the best metal to use in cymbal repair (if a piece is going to be added)?

5) Is it better to drill a bigger hole at the end of a crack vs. a smaller hole?

It would be really cool to see some pics and hear some success stories.

Thanks for any of your guidance/ wisdom.

God Bless,

John

I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 12 years ago
#1
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From Drummerjohn333

Hey guys,I have discovered that if cracks can be lived with, or repaired, it can save a great deal of money. I do not have a Dremel yet, so I have not gone about repairing (yet) some cymbals that I have. Could you all answer me some questions, so that I do not waste any of my time, money, cymbals, etc.1) What is worse/better, a horizontal or vertical crack? (In other words, cracks in the lathing groves, or perpendicular to them)John

All cracks mean that the structural integrity of the cymbal has been compromised. It might sound ok; but it will never sound the same because the tension in the cymbal has been broken. Lateral cracks seem to spread the easiest.

From Drummerjohn333

2) Would patching it up work - with super glue, like with a coin or some tin? Best metal or coin to use?

No.

From Drummerjohn333

3) How are cracks in the keyhole repaired? I have read of guys doing this - wonder what they are talking about.

You can insert a grommet into the bell - a supporting piece of metal that will take the stress off the bell. For jazz players, this can mean the cymbal might go on for a long time. But once again, the sound will be compromised.

From Drummerjohn333

4) What is the best metal to use in cymbal repair (if a piece is going to be added)?

I'd rather have a cymbal dremeled or cut down than go there.

From Drummerjohn333

5) Is it better to drill a bigger hole at the end of a crack vs. a smaller hole?

I'd drill the smallest hole possible. It depends on the severity of the crack though.

From Drummerjohn333

It would be really cool to see some pics and hear some success stories.

[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g179/troutstudio/trout/cymbals/56a7640e.jpg[/IMG]

This cymbal has a tiny edge crack. I drilled a very small hole in it to prevent further spread and then drilled it for 4 rivets. I'm going to enjoy it whilst it lasts, on very quiet gigs. I had a 13" Thin 602 crash which I destroyed in a session. I searched for 10 years until I found another one. That's really the only "fix", afaik.

Home Of The Trout
YouTube Channel
Posted on 12 years ago
#2
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While the lateral cracks may spread faster/easier than the horizontal, which is the least detrimental to the sound, if one exists.....

Let me explain a bit more.....we have all seen cymbals where the crack has been cut out, which leaves a slot type absence of material. Which of these are least detrimental to the sound...one from a repair of a lateral or horizontal crack?

Patching it with a small piece of metal and some super glue.......

Have you (anyone) ever seen it attempted?

Can someone give me some info on where to buy and (how to) doing the grommet repair for a damaged hole. Are they not only effective for keyholes, but are they also helpful when there are cracks coming off the hole?

Any links to documents on this would be great too.

I really appreciate the feedback!

John

I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 12 years ago
#3
Posts: 1427 Threads: 66
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Cracks in general can be stopped (or slowed at least) by drilling a hole at the end of the crack. This stops propagation, provided the metal grain boundary (that cracks follow) has been drilled out. In layman's terms, the drill hole has to have completely removed the 'end' of the crack, and the edges of the drilled hole need to be deburred (smoothed) because any sharp edge/corner is known as a 'stress riser' and therefore a location a crack can propagate from. Other than straight-up abuse, cracks can form from inclusions (impurities) in the metal that compromise the integrity of the alloy.

So, if you see a cracked cymbal that has been re-drilled several times trying to stop a crack, you know that either they did not properly stop the crack or the stress is so high that the crack can use the drilled hole itself as a propagation point- i.e. it is too small a drill hole. 1/16 inch is probably too small to effectively stop a typical crack, and 1/8 is probably more than sufficient in a thin cymbal. Thicker cymbals may need a larger drill hole than a thinner one, due to reduced flexibility of the alloy (because of the increased thickness).

Thicker cymbals are less flexible as mentioned above and therefore the area of cymbal around the crack (or up to it) may have leverage to continue a crack. Imagine a clean piece of cardboard- it has a certain stiffness to it. Now cut it in the middle across the center, but not all the way to each edge (simulating a crack) and it is very easy to fold in this location flapping the cardboard up and down. The flat un-creased cardboard is like a lever on the compromised area of the cardboard. The same thing happens in the cymbal.

Cracks with the groove in the bell area can be very difficult to stop for this reason- the entire rest of the cymbal is acting against this weakened area, that has support of the stiff bell and immovable cymbal stand, so even with (well done) crack stopper drill holes, the crack can continue to propagate through the hole because the leverage here is high when the cymbal is struck. Plus the vibration of the metal itself adds to fatigue which can cause cracks all by itself .

The lathe groove is also a propagation point for a crack, and I have seen cracks with the groove that shoot straight out from the crack end radially, to then take a sharp turn to follow another lathe groove. (in this case it was just played and no attempt was made to stop the crack)

So what I'm saying with all this is it is a case-by-case process and a drilled crack may live for another 100 years and it may not last beyond the next time you hit the cymbal and is dependent on many factors.

Cutting an edge crack completely out can have two benefits: 1) it lightens the cymbal where you cracked it, so on the stand that 'weak' area will be turned away from you. 2) it completely removes the propagation area from the cymbal- but be careful- I see a lot of crack repairs where a 'square' section is removed with sharp corners to the cut. It is FAR better to remove the cut with all rounded corners (even an arc), or you set up a new stress riser for vibration induced cracks to form at the sharp corners of the removed area and these tend to run around the cymbal following the lathe grooves.

Long winded but I have a bit of crack and corrosion knowledge and have an understanding of what is going on here (to some extent anyway).

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Posted on 12 years ago
#4
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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You get alot more money for them and save all the time you want if you turn them into clocks !!

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 12 years ago
#5
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For keyholes & hole cracks, the common fix is to cut a "washer" out of an old irreparable cymbal, 'dome' it to fit the curve of your bell, & glue it with JBweld. I go for as small a "washer" as I can make, & don't overdue it with the glue. Make up some kind of nut & bolt arrangement with a short section of pipe to clamp it in place.

My opinion is that this kind of repair doesn't really affect the sound of the cymbal. The cymbal stand washer & felt are pressed up against the repair by the weight of the cymbal already; can't see how a little glue & extra metal would make much difference. In any case, I'd take it over not playing it at all. I've also cut small filler pieces of bronze & glued them into the keyhole, just for appearance' sake, so you don't see the new bronze washer with JBweld all smeared in the hole. Here's shot of a keyhole filler. Good luck...marko

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Posted on 12 years ago
#6
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Very interesting Marko - could you post a pic of the top side of that repair job? Seems that I have also heard of the idea of installing eyelets into the hole like they have in marking cymbals.

I want to also mention, for sound sake, that I have discovered that cymbals with cracks coming off the hole DO SUFFER in terms of sound quality. The cymbal will not wash as much and the sustain will not be as strong or long. I discovered this with a HH cymbal top that has a couple cracks off the hole, which I am frustrated with the sound of......and after brainstorming of why I don't like them yet people rave about them, I have concluded that that was why.....these are a pair of Paiste 505 Medium hats that I would think I would love - but these cracks kill their performance. These cracks do not threaten the integrity of the cymbal and I am not concerned with the structural integrity or worried about them growing - but have definitely noticed a downgrade of performance.

John

I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 12 years ago
#7
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John, that photo IS of the top of the cymbal; it just shows the little filler piece I put in. I don't have any shots of the underside showing the washer repair.

I'm surprised that you can hear the effect of hole cracks that distinctly, especially on hihats. They're played partially or totally closed so much of the time that I'd think it'd be very hard to hear the difference. But if you can, then that proves it.

Thinking on it, I don't think I ever cracked a cymbal; all the ones I have with cracks were bought that way, so I never heard them undamaged. Anyhow, that's how I fix 'em. I keep meaning to get a grommet set-up--seems like it's a good way to try & stop hole cracks from spreading....marko

Posted on 12 years ago
#8
Posts: 1244 Threads: 204
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Cracks that are perpendicular to the lathing grooves start to go horizontally eventually and spread much faster. I have an 18" Paiste black label medium cymbal that had a 4" crack about an inch or inch and a half into the cymbal but started as a vertical one. I've made a vid of the repair using an air grinder. The compressor I was using was weak and making the grinder slow down a lot. I run the cutoff wheel into a candle to help keep the cutoff wheel from glazing up with the cymbal material because it is sticky and gums up on the wheel causing it not to grind well at all. I have rounded the edges more which helps for a nice transition on the cymbal. Having an abrupt angle will just create another weak point for breaking (first pic).

Not Good[IMG]http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l407/olimpass/NonRoundedEdge.jpg[/IMG]

Good[IMG]http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l407/olimpass/roundedcymbal.jpg[/IMG]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKMGAfWBGMM[/ame]

I have rounded the edges more than seen in this vid. I've used a sandpaper disk to smooth it out and a piece of sandpaper or handstone to finish it nice. You have to keep a firm grip on that air grinder or it will want to ride across your cymbal putting gouges in it. Still using the cymbal today with no problems.

You cannot weld a Zildjian B20 cymbal. Tried it even with a piece of the same cymbal. Just pops.

Tried solder. It'll work but doesn't last and sounds like poop.

Tried drilling holes. Works very good but sometimes the metal of the cymbal will shiver together making it sound funny on long cracks.

Super Glue...no way. Waste of time IMO.

I like the JB weld idea for the cymbal hole or just use the dremmel to put a keyhole looking grind mark to take out the crack and use a grommet or cymbal sleeve.

[IMG]http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l407/olimpass/DSC05674.jpg[/IMG]

Pic of a hi-hat top I've ground. Plenty of air escape now....lol. Loud chick.

Interested in others input also and plenty of great advice so far.

Posted on 12 years ago
#9
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One thing to add (before drilling); to locate the end of the crack, you really need to use a scope. You cannot do it with the naked eye.

Posted on 12 years ago
#10
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