I'm not sure if both machine pressing and the mechanical hammering process vis a vis the Quincy drop hammer, were both done together. The Quincy Hammer came first as long ago as the 1950's, and the pressing machine came in much later. So my hunch is that they were either shaped by one method or the other, and then hand hammering was added. Although I'm not absolutely sure, I do know that both processes were done in order to pre-shape the cymbal, and also to cut done on the amount of total hammering required.

You are misunderstanding me. I am not referring to the drop hammer although the cymbal book says it was still used by Zildjain in some cases. They were hammered via a mechanical hammer giving it hammer marks. A Zildjian employee ran the cymbal under the hammer in a random pattern. They were then machine pressed into shape.

Years ago I had this debate with Matt Bettis and some other guys on the Pearl forum. My initial position was that USA made K’s were never hand hammered at all based on Zildjain’s current claims. One of the guys wrote Zildjian in the 90’s questioning their anniversary feature in Modern Drummer where they said K. Zildjian’s were hand hammered. Colin Schofield wrote him back and clarified the evolution of the process. Bettis was of the opinion that there was some hand hammering in his EAK’s. Between Schofield’s letter and Bettis’ expert opinion they changed my mind.

The cymbal book also discusses it. “The K Zildjian cymbals are mainly hammered with the help of a smaller type of mechanical hammer, which attacks the cymbal with a few hundred beats per minute. The man at the machine guides the cymbal without any pins or anvils, just by hand and apparently at random. “ “The cymbals are then finished with the ancient hand-held hammer.”

In the next paragraph… “One company has also been using a press in the process of shaping such cymbals, guaranteeing optimal consistency of the low profile.”

That may be the case with the IAK's and later ones, but I'm not so sure that's true with the EAK's. You see, nobody at Zildjian was required to make that distinction when asked. In fact I'm not even sure that they are even aware of the specific terminology that we apply to that specific time period, nor do I believe that they would have sufficient motivation to even care at this point. They have demonstrated time and time again that they are a bit deficient when it come to remembering their own past.

But certainly they should still be able to remember this....

Or would they?

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/kzildjianandco/tonyZildjianad.jpg[/img]

True. All we can do is take the bits and pieces and make sense of it. Back then there was a desire to keep the production methods close to the vest to be as old world as possible. Now that all of the hammering is computer controlled, they can change their tune and say hand hammering is irrelevant. After all, they are trying to sell new cymbals, so they have a vested interest in saying their current method is the best way.

Here are a few posts from the Ask Zildjian section of the old site. The first question was from me. Around the time of the debate with Matt and the other guys on the Pearl forum, I wrote Zildjian and this was their response on their old site.

1/7/2008 6:26:49 PM

Brian

Q : I was under the impression that the USA K line introduced in 1982 was machine hammered via computer controlled random hammering. Everything I read from Zildjian leads me to conclude this. Others insist that the early K's made in the USA were hand hammered until around 1985. They believe those cymbals have a distinctly different hammering pattern than later versions. Were they in fact machine or hand hammered? Thanks for your help.

A : No matter what any of the major cymbal manufacturers may state in their advertising, no cymbal has been completely hand hammering within the modern era. Early US K's were hammered via a mechanical reciprocating hammer while a cymbal was hand fed into the hammer area and this was done while the cymbal was still a flat blank. After hammering, THEN it was shaped by a pressing die. In centuries past, hand hammering was done to shape a cymbal but that is no longer necessary. In the mid-ninties, computer generating hammers were then used to perfectly hammer all K's in a random manner. The velocity of this hammer was 4 times harder than what anyone could possibly do it by hand.

10/10/2007 7:48:47 PM

Ray

Q : What is the difference between a K and an EAK (Early American K) ? I have a K with the serial number of JA-13543-121. Would this cymbal be considered an Early American if it was made in 2000 ? Thank you for all your efforts to inform and educate us all. Regards,

A : There has never been a K that has been considered an "Early American" K but there have been changes with the design of the K since they were first manufactured in the US in 1982. They started off with a rather smooth lathing process that continued until approximately 1989 when the lathing become more pronounced with more visible lines. That process continued until 2001 when the lathing reverted back to the smooth lathing style and has remained that way ever since. Your cymbal really does not affiliate itself with any particular K era.

6/26/2009 10:24:50 AM

Daryl Q : Are there any lines of Zildjian cymbals which are completely and literally hand hammered in the Old World traditional way? (and I mean a hammer held in the hand and striking the hammer as opposed to someone's hand guiding a machine hammer). I had heard that K Constantinoples are still made this way but I of course have no way of knowing. Thank you.

A : All major cymbal manufacturers no longer use hand hammering methods on their cymbals (no matter what their advertising might say). Zildjian is the only cymbal manufacturer that uses state-of-the-art computer technology to accurately create perfect random hammering patterns on its K and K Constantinople cymbal instruments. In addition, this method allows for a hammer strike velocity that is at least 4 times the velocity than what anyone could possibly do by hand. This additional power of the hammer strike allows for a much richer sound with its overtones. There are some smaller boutique cymbal makers that do still hand hammer their cymbals, but they will never achieve the perfect balance of overtones that the modern day K and K Constantinople cymbals possess.

So does that also include what Zildjian's advertisements say as well?? That does not seem to comport with what we read in the above ad or even agree with what we see portrayed there, now does it?

That statement about how their machines hammer "with 4 times the velocity" was also stated as "with 4 times the force" in earlier claims; and both are just marketing hype. Cymbals that are more heavily hammered do not necessarily "allow for a much richer sound". In fact the more heavily a cymbal is hammered the more stiff and more unyielding it becomes, and the more choked the sound becomes as a result of that. A cymbal has to be able to "breathe" when its being played, but Zildjian's previous "pile driver" method of hammering creates cymbals that suffocate themselves to death. The early Constantinople line is a prime example of this phenomenon, but as of recently they've since changed to lighter hammering methods with the latest Constantinople K's, and that no longer seems to be the case.

It makes you wonder how the old Istanbul K. Zildjian Co. was able to create so many of those gorgeously dark and rich sounding old classic cymbals seeing as how all they had at their disposal was those hopelessly old fashioned (at least according to Zildjian) old world methods of artisan controlled hand hammering; while not having the benifit of Zildjian's space-age computer controlled hammering machines. Its just amazing how they did that, isn't it?

Well then I guess he must be "out of the loop" when it comes to what's going on over at the foundry one of Zildjian's principle competitors, ie. Sabian:

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/kerope/websize/KeropeSabianPic.jpg[/img]

And why no one in this country or abroad can duplicate them!

Cool1

I don't have the expertise of you guys, but I did visit the Sabian factory for an article I wrote in the early days post the big break up.

Smaller, thicker, rounds of bronze were slipped into a press with what were effectively enormous spatulas. Pizza sized rounds of bronze were extracted.

There was a section for hand hammering--I believe it was a closed off space on the factory floor, but this was years ago so the memory fogs. At the time Sabian was making HH, which were promoted as Hand Hammered. While I was visiting two or three guys did hand hammer some pies. These were rural people from New Brunswick, none of the Turkish artisans were hammering when I visited. The fellows hammering all had serious forearms btw.

Just checked and the article I wrote was in Canadian Music Trade, April May 1983 volume 5, issue 2, page 24-31.

Your comments on the 4x the force being hype were Bettis' opinion as well.

On the subject of Sabian Hand Hammering, they do hand hammer the HH cymbals hammer to anvil, but after preliminary shaping with the Quincy hammer. I have no issue with it since Sabian is open about it. Just pointing it out for others who are reading.

Thanks, as always, Drumoholic. I had a strong suspicion about Zildjian and hand hammering. Didn't think I was wrong. Appreciate your depth on this site.

I give up.