A week has gone by with no comments. No one knows anything about these date codes?

The earliest date stamp I have seen thus far on a label is JUN 2 1970 and the latest is JUL 21 1972. I do not yet know if the use of date codes followed or was intermingled with the date stamps.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Rick, how do the serial numbers line up with the dates? Could you give us the corresponding serials for both the date codes and the date stamps?

Thanks,

Bill

Just found a record of a kit I sold a while back.

22-13-16, WMP, one owner set, said he purchased in 1971.

14x22 had ink date stamp of AUG 14 1970.

9x13 had paper label with 58717 date, 944 model.

16x16 had paper label with 59717 date, 950 model.

All serial numbers were 89xxx.

[img]http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/images/lud_wmp_70/use_06a.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/images/lud_wmp_70/use_06b.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.classicvintagedrums.com/images/lud_wmp_70/use_06c.jpg[/img]

Main Line (Blue/Olive Pointy Corner Badges):

Date Stamps:

05/03/71 858320

05/06/71 854286

05/13/71 857811

05/18/71 854922

05/20/71 855058

05/21/71 875365

07/15/71 895467

08/18/71 874131

09/30/71 898656

10/21/71 901044

12/09/71 Blank Badge

07/21/72 913278

Date Codes:

5671X Blank Badge

59717 Blank Badge

4272 826477

4272 828835

31720 852935

21720 878991

81720 879840

56717 895533

57717 896518

59717 898000

60717 899121

59717 906326

11717 907466

21720 908XXX

21720 909XXX

21720 912XXX

61717 917834

61717 917839

61717 917914

61717 917998

60717 918172

60717 920297

60717 920415

32372 930726

4272 930862

4272 931701

Standard Line:

Date Stamps:

06/02/70 37460

02/10/71 41125

05/04/71 47188

04/20/71 48489

08/23/71 49864

08/24/71 49937

Date Codes:

57717 51403

57717 51479

56717 51708

56717 52370

56717 52435

56717 52502

56717 52959

56717 52969

4272 53461

56717 53684

21720 63908

Here are the B/O Badge drums in Serial Number Order

4272 826477

4272 828835

31720 852935

05/06/71 854286

05/18/71 854922

05/20/71 855058

05/13/71 857811

05/03/71 858320

08/18/71 874131

05/21/71 875365

21720 878991

81720 879840

07/15/71 895467

56717 895533

57717 896518

59717 898000

09/30/71 898656

60717 899121

10/21/71 901044

59717 906326

11717 907466

21720 908XXX

21720 909XXX

21720 912XXX

07/21/72 913278

61717 917834

61717 917839

61717 917914

61717 917998

60717 918172

60717 920297

60717 920415

32372 930726

4272 930862

4272 931701

It seems to be generally agreed that Ludwig badges with serial numbers were not issued in strict numerical order, although this comment has been made when the topic was Keystone era badges. I do not know that anyone with first hand knowledge of Ludwig's practices has specifically stated that the same approach was used with B/O bdages. Without any additional information, I am not in a position to say that anything was done differently after the switch to B/O badges in 1969. I can only state that simply putting drums in serial number order does not necessarily reflect their manufacturing order.

I am not able to detect any particular pattern in the above. Were date stamps and date codes used at the same time or did date codes replace date stamps at some point?

Perhaps the answer will come from additional reports of date stamps and date codes on labels from B/O badge drums.

Rick

PS: Bill, are the SNs for the WMP set 89xxxx (an additional digit) or something else?

Great stuff here as I have wanted to know details of this stuff. Do you know when the last ink date stamps were? I have a mod orange clubdate stamped in the 12" tom that reads Jan 5 1971. I also have a silver sparkle jazzfest with the paper tag that reads 4272. I am very interested to see what you eventually find out.

-Kurt

By that, do you mean the last date stamps on shells rather than labels?

The latest one that I have recorded (I have over 750 drums in my database which have both serial numbers and date stamps) is MAR 12 1971. I actually owned this drum and can confirm that it was a date stamp on the shell rather than on a label. The first date stamp I have recorded on a label used on a B/O badge drum is MAY 3 1971. Some of the Standards had earlier dates, as indicated already.

From what I have so far, there are no date stamps on labels before MAY 3 1971 and no date stamps on shells after MAR 12 1971. I expect that some will be found simply based upon the large numbers of drums produced. Is there a clean transition from dates stamped on shells to dates stamped on labels? I cannot tell at this point. The good thing is that the shell dating questions should not have anything to do with serial numbers since these are apparently independent operations, so we can remove that variable from the analysis. With more data we should be able to learn more. If people have later date stamps or earlier labels, let me know.

Rick

My '71 Black Panther big beat kit is ink stamped Jan. 25, 1971 and are all in the 89xxxx serial range.

For anyone who has some insight or interest in this issue, I have provided an updated list below.

Main Line (Blue/Olive Pointy Corner Badges):

Date Stamps:

04/25/71 829747

05/03/71 854521

05/03/71 858320

05/06/71 854286

05/13/71 857811

05/16/71 899014

05/18/71 854922

05/20/71 855058

05/20/71 865XXX

05/21/71 875365

05/28/71 8899XX

06/21/71 893516

07/15/71 895467

08/18/71 874131

08/18/71 874217

08/30/71 874697

09/30/71 898656

10/21/71 902738

11/03/71 901044

? 918172 - Label pictured, could not see date

11/08/71 923013

? 938639 - Label visible, but no date could be determined

12/09/71 Blank

12/14/XX 865XXX - Part of date obscured by mount

07/21/72 913278 Remove from list - Seller listed date, but appears to be seller's interpretation of date code 21720, not actual date stamp.

Date Codes:

4272 # 826477 (The Date Code has a # a few spaces to the right of the 4272. It sometimes is at the edge of the label)

4272 # 828431

4272 828835

4272 # 929402

4272 930862

4272 # 931701

11717 907466

11717 907333

12717 868906

12717 869603

12717 869605

12717 869699

14727 913602

14727 927474

14717 932200

14727 938355

21720 878991

21720 908000

21720 909000

21720 912000

21720 913278 - Formerly listed as 7/21/72 (see above)

31720 852935

32372 930726

56717 895533

56717 Blank

56717 Blank

56717 Blank

56717 Blank

57717 846643

57717 896455

57717 841352

57717 897227

57717 841807

57717 845145

57717 893327

57717 896518

58717 844317

58717 844439

58717 874574

58717 89XXXX

58717 Blank

59717 Blank

59717 89XXXX

59717 8980XX

59717 906326

60717 899121

60717 899489

60717 9XXXXX

60717 900260

60717 918172

60717 920297

60717 920415

60717 920500

61717 917834

61717 917839

61717 917914

61717 917998

81720 879840

5671X Blank

59713* 900309 - Last digit of date Code difficult for seller to read

xx717 917894 - First two digits of Date Code not readable

Standard Line:

Date Stamps:

06/02/70 37460 - Remove - no label, just stamp on shell

02/10/71 41125

05/04/71 47188

04/20/71 48489

07/20/71 52249

06/11/71 52651

08/23/71 49864

08/24/71 49937

Date Codes:

57717 51403

57717 51479

56717 51708

56717 52370

56717 52435

56717 52502

56717 52959

56717 52969

4272 53461

56717 53684

11717 58669

11717 59330

11717 59360

11717 59428

21720 63908

14717 66405

XX717 66481

Rick