I have remeasured the drum, & would say it is actually 360mm. Part of the problem is that it is a bit out of round & I was getting different numbers.

Are you going to keep the drum ?

Now I don`t know too much about hardware on other than Sonor drums, includeing Tromsa, but If someone tried to sell me these drums, no matter how rare or old,.I would think fake until I saw some indication of a trademark.

The construction does not say MIJ it says Sonor but nothing about those drums confirms what the are to the untrained eye. At least in those photo`s provided !!

If you don`t mind me asking,..How did you authenticate or draw your conclusion ??

The drum in this thread looks like it originally had been finished in a white(ivory) lacquer. it was painted over w/ red, then had the holes plugged & completely wrapped in red crinkle foil. The impressions left in the shell showed that it had 8 imperial type lugs(Sonor ?), leaving clear stairstep lines (pics).

Sonor used this lug from 35 til who knows when,...the luddy guys here could determine the differeces in the footprint, I`ve never held an imperial lug so I don`t know what the two (guide) holes are for.

Here`s a 35 Super extra. See if you can find three tack holes like on the badge next to the extra in the photo !!

Henk also mentioned that this drum was made in ruby and Ivory laqure !!

[QUOTE=OddBall;170008]Now I don`t know too much about hardware on other than Sonor drums, includeing Tromsa, but If someone tried to sell me these drums, no matter how rare or old,.I would think fake until I saw some indication of a trademark.

The construction does not say MIJ it says Sonor but nothing about those drums confirms what the are to the untrained eye. At least in those photo`s provided !!

If you don`t mind me asking,..How did you authenticate or draw your conclusion ??[/QUOTE

Trowa often did not badge their products. I don't know why this is and I have asked a number of people but I have received no definitive reason.Perhaps it has something to do with the Socialist system and a perceived sense of commonality that is supposed to go with it.

As far as a determination of the brand of these? I guess it comes down to experience. You said it best, using the term"untrained eye". Well that implies, that there are trained eyes as well.There are certain key elements in the fittings, hardware and shell construction that determine who made these. The shells are typically, Trowa as are the thin straight tom legs ,with the waterdroplet shaped feet; the hoops----gently incurved at the rim, with a broad,deep skirt ; the thick,short 10mm slot, t-screw heads ; assymetrical,angular, wing shaped locknuts and T-rod handles; the typical early fifties,cast aluminum, 5 surfaced teardrop lugs, with the flattened spine and the dual action muffler, all say Trowa. Only Deri, had a similar muffler and the mounting flange on the Deri, version was different.

German drums are a bit tricky to the untrained eye because at one time or another between the end of the second world war and 1960, every major maker used what would commonly be called teardrop lugs. That would mean 6 mfg. used superficially similar lugs and they all had European Beech shells, either entirely or partly.They all used incurving hoops and to boot, they all bought most of their wrap designs from the same maker and there was huge overlap, in the wraps offered.

No one , with any knowledge of the history and development of German drums would ever confuse these as anything but Trowa, though. To do so would be pretty much akin to mistaking Ludwigs for Rogers, or Autocrats for Premiers, if the badge was missing.

As for confusing these with Tromsa? Of all the German drums from the 50's, Tromsa are the least like these, in so many ways. Tromsa had slender ,thin lugs with an indent along the spine. Tromsa used mainly Poplar for the shells, with some beech. Tromsa used simple wingnuts and fittings----nothing elaborate, cast or sculptured, Tromsa mufflers were always of the adjustable type----never flip-on, Tromsa bassdrum hoops were always painted white in this period, Tromsa floortoms were always deep in this period, Tromsa floortom legs had one gentle curve about 2/3 the way down(similar to Rogers),Tromsa t-screw heads were 8mm, Tromsa hoops had a medium depth skirt( very similar to Slingerland sticksavers). Tromsa did not offer silver sparkle in this period.

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Thank you for takeing the time to share your knowlage with me/us, that`s what this site does and why I`m here. To be blunt, pick brains like yours.

I do understand that machineing is gonna be a good if not excellent way to sort out who`s who. I did five years with my sisters machine shop back when I was in my twenties jump`n around jobs. We had Brown and Sharpe,(Screw) Bridgeport (Milling/lathe) and some other tumbler machines (de-burr) and the benefit of a foundry next door with a centerless grinder up the street a bit,...The machine tolerences and tooling types are one of the ways I refer to factual instead of actual identification processes. Some parts can be interchangeable and alot of factuals have to line up when I am going to learn and share knowlage in vintage drum history. I`m new at all other drum makers` fittings and shells except Sonor,..I been into Sonor drums since 78 but there were no hard drives to store data and retrieve data so quickly, most of what I learned is in my head, and try`n now to put onto a disc. In my mind, the work we do now will pay off long into the future of this part of music. I still wouldn`t buy the silver sparkle kit without a certificate of authenticity, you calf, knowing what you do,...would !! guys like henk would too !! I`ll get there one day.

Now about that red drum,

I saw that the hoops could also be Sonor of a different model (henk showed me one), that might explain the two side by side holes under the lug. The imperial style lug print is on top of the red paint, so it can`t be called original until we get the red paint off and see if there is a footprint of another lug or that one. The shell appears sonor, the cut around the re-rings,..no large washer prints on the inside, the wood it`self,..the re-rings themsleves`appear Sonor. Now the factuals like the throw-off, the wood type, and drum size are not enough to say this is a Sonor drum !! Yet !!!!

The million dollar question is,...What made those two side by side holes under each lug ??

My thought is that there is a lug of some type that works with the hoops, and either they were original or the imperial type were original and at some point the drum was altered to add.

So how do we get tdennis to strip the red paint and do a show-n-tell ??

It has to be done to answer the openning question !! The any and all help part has been done, now we need to do the factuals !!

There are no signs of another lug other than the imperial style, which has left a deep impression in the original white finish , even into the wood itself. I believe the 2 round indentations on either side of the holes are from the casing of the imperial (Sonor) lug. Ludwig Imperial lugs for wood do not have these two appendages that leave such marks. ( as far as to whether these lugs, hoops, & snare system were original, & even if they were used together is beyond my knowledge. The lugs could have been removed at some time in the past, & the hoops came later to make it a free floating drum ? ? ) The shell seems to have been reworked several times, leaving remnants of other throws & mufflers? There are triple holes across from each other that seem to tell of an older strainer system.

Again , many thanks to all the knowledgeable drummers who have looked at this snare. Your many postings, even going back to 2009, have opened a fascinating world of German & Soviet Block makers/brands.

Yeah, yeah.

I know we had a disagreement lately, but to judge somebody this way in public, says probably more about you than about me.

I know a lot about old Sonor drums and less of other brands and that's fine with me, however, i was familiar with the names of Trowa and Tromsa before you told me, believe me.

And yes i learned from you about these 2 brands but to write down a statementlike this:

doesn't make sence at all.

Oh..... and i'm interested in the history of these 2 German brands, but i've enough research to do about the whereabouts of Sonor and leave the more specific things about all those other brands to other collectors as you, who serve the public with their knowledge.

And last but not least, i didn't changed the name in the picture file into Trowa at the time, because the link to several online boards would be broken.

So that is a deliberately decision, but maybe i will change it in the future.

Wkr, Henk