I guess, there's some confusion in here ...

Please don't mix up Hoshino Gakki (= Star = Tama) with Hoshino Kougyou. Both brands were located in the same Japanese town (Nagoya), but that's all with the similarities (there are some posts here conc. 'Hoshino' - to be found via 'search').

Only Hoshino Kougyou used badges with 'Hoshino' on it. And 'Hoshino' kits never had something special only at their kits. It ALWAYS was a mix of either Star copied or Pearl copied hardware.

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... Hardware says Hoshino to me, (lugs, consolette, etc.) ...

unquote

... means (sorry to say that): ... nothing. Either these parts look like Star ones or they look like Pearl's ... or the shells contain a mix of both (I've seen that all at 'Hoshino')!

If possible, please make a brighter pic of the hardware parts and the badge to clarify. Thanks!

Ralf

Ha! A-ha! Thanks, DNW, for posting this. Very interesting indeed!

If I had seen the badge only, I would have said "Pearl, hands down, case closed." But those are the shark tooth lugs that we associate with Hoshino (and I'm not getting involved in the "which Hoshino" thing.)

So, barring the possiblity that the lugs aren't original (not likely,) where does this leave us in the ID game? Is this irrefutible evidence that there was a connection between Pearl and Hoshino in the early-mid 70s?

Sorry for delayed response - dealing with birthday stuff. Anyway, Ralf; with all due respect, I am familiar with the 'Hoshino' confusion, and have dealt with that issue on earlier threads. I'm referring to Hoshino, (Kougyou, not Star) in this regard. I have/had more than one Hoshino kit, and one of the tell-tale signs that I use is the non-spring, metal tab, insert, 'sharks tooth' lugs. Attached pic, courtesy of OsakaBop, from an earlier thread. Sorry for quality of original, posted pic, but that was only one, pulled directly from ad in question. I think you can still tell that the lugs are the same, as well as the consolette mount.

cn679, thanks - I think we are on the same page. I am the first to admit that there is still plenty of grey area concerning these old MIJ kits, and from what I've learned, I've pretty much excused Star from this equation. Yes, I think that the real question here, is whether there is a connection between Hoshino, (Kougyou) and Pearl, or if the badge on this particular kit is unoriginal. I have observed some later Pearl kits that have spring-less lugs with tab inserts. (though plastic) and that said, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some affiliation between the two. If there is not, then I'd say the badge has most likely been replaced. Any further, informed insight here would be appreciated. Thanks for the responses.

Hello,

DN: sorry, but I don't understand what you mean with:

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... I think you can still tell that the lugs are the same, as well as the consolette mount. ...

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?

The lugs are the same like ... what ?

These Hoshino 'shark tooth' lugs remind me of this 1977s Tama:

http://www.tamadrum.co.jp/anniversary/page.php?cat_id=29&year=1977

What do you mean with your experience (no doubt that you have it) with Hoshino's? Did they have their own design elements in the hardware parts - or not? If yes, please kindly explain (... their own development, apart from Star and Pearl) and I'll be happy to be the first to learn about that!

Who knows? Perhaps there really was a merger in the 70s between Hoshono and Pearl (Pearl as the major partner) and only the name Pearl survived?

Ralf

Ralf - sorry if I was unclear. My reference was simply between the original pic I'd posted, from the ad, (though admittedly hard to see) and the sample pic of the Hoshino kit, supplied by OsakaBop. In my observation, the hardware is the same. It is different from the 77 Tama hardware pic you provided, (I believe those have spring loaded lugs if I recall, as I have some examples of those also) and, (3?) grooves in the lug, which is shorter, and wider than the 'Hoshino' sample picture. the Hoshino, 'sharks tooth' lugs, (different from Star) have one, pronounced, center, vertical, raised ridge, top to bottom, and most notably, the flat, horizontal, metal insert, with hole that the t-rod screws into - no spring. To my understanding, this was unique to the Hoshino, though, admittedly I might be under-informed on the matter. Ultimately, my main concern it to try and help to definitively identify the manufacturers of these Japanese drums. When I have a chance, I'll see if I can find the thread I'd started a while back, trying to identify a kit that I had, which had been identified as Hoshino...

* Update - Just stumbled across another example of 'Stewarts' with the same hardware. Edging more towards an affiliation between Hoshino and Pearl now, rather than a re-badge. The plot thickens...

I know the kind of Hoshino lugs, Daddy refers to. Seems cheaper than the other, early Hoshino-lug, which has a spring and a real insert.

Never saw them on anything but Hoshinos, though.

Could the explanation be that the company that stuck "Stewart"-badges on drums not only bought from Pearl, but from Hoshino too - or was able to order drums from both companies with Stewart-badges?

Ralf, I don´t quite agree that Hoshino copied either Pearl or Star - the other lugs, I mentioned above, are like neither. Not like Slingerlands, but a little:

http://www.gratisimage.dk/image-779A_4EC586CF.jpg

Later, they made kits with Beavertail lugs...

Regards

Jon

Regards

Jon

Ohhh yessss. I forgot to mention that they lateron copied from Rogers, too! Thanks - you're absolutely right.

Those lugs as per your pic I've never seen before: a hybrid of Pearl's President and Rogers lugs, eh? (And therefore: yes, looks like a design on their own ... ?)

Ralf

There is an essential flaw in many of the discussions on this forum about the beginnings of the Japanese drum industry. That flaw is, that the companies themselves made the decisions about the design and cosmetics of the drums and is colouring the debates over who made what hardware and who copied who etc.

In the case of companies that don't do stencils, the design and function of the product is top down, with the company dictating what they want to produce for the market that they were carving out. The idea is, if we make good drums, develop a dealer network,have good sales staff and promote and support the product well ,then we will be successfull.

With the stencil makers, it is different. First of all; the original intent was not to make good drums, it was to make money. The idea was , that there already is a market out there for something that looks like THIS(case in point being a Slingerland kit that they got there hands on) and we're going to put out a cheap version of that and catch the portion of the market for that product that doesn't have enough money to buy the real thing.

Initially the company('s) put out some self branded product but very quickly importers and distributors by the hundreds realized that they could have a private brand. So, the company('s) increasingly produced custom runs to make money. They didn't care what they looked like because it was the customer(fill in department store chain or music distributor of your choice here) who made that decision. They would show them a picture or description and then" how much to make me a 1000 kits like this and ship them to Chicago"? If you wanted shark tooth lugs, you got it, you wanted Slingerland copy lugs , you got it. There was stock available of a certain amount of hardware styles, probably made in a single facility and you could have what ever you wanted on your drums. If you were the importer and distributor of Whitehall and had wanted Elephant trunks for lugs , you could have had it as a special run, as well. as long as you paid enough.

The job of the drum companies in Japan up until into the 70's was making money making drums that were just good enough, not as was the case with everybody else ; which was making good drums to make money.

Now; in the 70's, after they made enough money , and helped put about 1/2 the world's drum companies out of business, thus freeing the field for their own brand , they began dropping the practice(turned it over to the Taiwanese, who then turned it over to the Chinese) of stencilling and forged ahead with better quality under their own name.

So. The point is. Stewart or Bolero or Raven or Decca or Apollo or whatever could have had any lugs the customer ordered because the decision was bottom up not top down. Only when Pearl or Tama (and Yamaha---who were always more circumspect) did their own thing, did branding by design enter the picture.