There has been refinement in the metals industry to produce more accurate alloys (and price accordingly). There are over 2000 different copper alloys these days!

But I think the only way to ever settle an arguement like this is to pull as much subjectivity out of the mix and make it as objective as possible. This is where doing a PMI comes in real handy to know exactly what the alloys are; the weight for a given cymbal; and and oscilliscope to interpret the sound.

Of course even with that there is a hug amount of variables. Take the last two criteria and consider the accuracy of the scales, how the cymbal would be mic'ed and struck and by what kind of stick or mallet in what location etc... It boggles the mind. I fail to see reasoning in the basic premise that it's better because it's older/vintage.

ahhh, the fu@ked up Krupa splash discussion...why in the hell did he love that little splash so much? I think it's because we love mutts! I'm a Paiste guy, it's probably the German in me that loves the consistency...but what makes me love the beat-up, warped, cracked or (fill in the blank) __________ ? I guess it's because I love the individual characteristics of these mutts. What makes us love anything?...I really don't know, never even thought about it. It's like Gene & his warped little splash...superstition?...maybe, I just think he liked it. I've got several Paiste thin china's that are beat to hell & back but I love them!...they have character and in this day & time, character is hard to come by!

Sure, metal processing has come light years in a very short time, but processing procedures & quality are very different. With few exceptions, quality has taken a back seat to quantity. Smelting metals is a very basic technology...good stuff was & is still made by capable craftsman, you just have to look thru a lot of crap to find their work.

Just my 2 cents.

Dan

I don't know about metal impurity, but metal fatigue is something I've encountered often while searching for vintage cymbals. I wonder if the desirable "mellowness" in vintage cymbals is actually a certain degree of them being played out, but not completely out.

In a related topic, I've seen metal fatigue occur quite a bit in vibraphone bars. Not so much of the pre-WWII steel-barred models, but for sure in the aluminum alloy bars that proliferated since the early days of jazz. When a bar is out of tune, you can re-tune it, but when a bar is fatigued, there's no fixing it--you have to replace it.

While I know alloys have changed over time, I believe that the major differences in sound between old and new cymbals are a result of the changes in manufacturing techniques. For example, mid-50's Avedis Zildjians are very different sounding than mid-60's Avedis Zildjians, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the alloys are almost identical. The difference in sound comes from major changes in manufacturing techniques, such as hand-hammering vs. Quincy drop hammer, etc.

Cymbals can certainly be "played out"...kind of dead sounding, like they're covered in tape. I believe this is due to metal fatigue, as well as interior damage. I've found this to be more prevalent in hand-hammered cymbals as opposed to machine made.

mlvibes, that's interesting that you've found this more prevalent in hh cymbals; is this because hh cymbals are older? that machine made cymbals, by definition, haven't been around that long? Or is it more common in new hh cymbals, too?.....marko

"Cleaner" alloys have a lot to do with modern cymbals sounding more precise. In addition to this, more closely controlled alloying and oven temperatures (where the cymbals are reheated for rolling multiple times), different lathing textures and tools, and the proliferation of automated and semi-automated hammering. These are all in an effort at sonic repeatability. While the Swiss method has had this down for awhile due to the alloy and processing differences, Turkish cymbals, even precision-manufactured, still sport fairly-wide variations between cymbals, because castings are individual, even though they are poured from the same batch of alloy.

Because cymbals are also covered by a manufacturer's warranty nowadays, from what I can see and feel, the cymbals do not taper as thin at the edges, minimizing cracking under heavy use. And yes, metal can fatigue and you can beat the life out of a cymbal, at which point they often crack. Turkish cymbals tend to crack around the cup, and Swiss cymbals tend to crack at the edge.

Vintage cymbals sported a wide disparity of weights and sounds, even within a single type (e.g. medium ride). This gave each cymbal an individual voice, but I can assure you that didn't mean that ALL of those were good voices. In fact, when I was at the Zildjian factory back in the summer, they showed me a room called the "Family Vault" (I wasn't allowed in). It's an area where cymbals made by family members are stored, and some are ancient. I was told that the bulk of them just aren't that great-sounding, as they had tested them all in an effort to see if they wanted to reproduce anything. "Vintage" and "individual" does NOT necessarily translate as "good", however I do believe that every cymbal, no matter what it sounds like, has an owner that it hasn't found yet.

Really good comments, all of them. One thing that has become a universal guiding hand in todays world is the concept of consistency and it's handmaiden Warranty. I would think in the old days , it was pretty much expected that cymbals were individual and because of the life they led, were vulnerable to breakage. Certainly there were cymbals that had guarantees but there was common sense at play. No doubt, impurities played a role in that, as well as in colouring the sound of the individual piece. Now days, there is an expectation of consistency in manufactured products and an expectation of lifespan. Cymbals are one of the few musical instruments that can be damaged through normal use(as opposed to suffering wear and tear). We now have universal warranties on cymbals, so the eradication of impurities , which would threaten that warranty must have become a priority. One of the results of that as well, might be cleaner and more consistent sounding cymbals, which in themselves are marketable values.

Cymbals will NOT be harmed under normal use. If you tend to crack cymbals of a certain weight (or worse, or ALL weights), then you are hitting them wrong and/or overplaying them. There IS such a thing as a defective cymbal, but it's really far and few in between. It's the player that has the issue. Now, if your bag is thin crashes played hard and that's "your sound", then you might have to pay the piper and replace them every so often. There's no free ride.

Just FYI- back in the K Zildjian days in Turkey, a lot of the copper was purchased as scrap telephone and electrical cable and it was thrown into the pot insulation and all. A lot of it burned off due to sheer temperature and also the charcoal flux, but the alloy was primarily uncontrolled, which explains the huge differences in cymbals of that era, and also contributes to the darker tonality. Which way is correct? Clean or dirty? That's up to the player to decide.

Well. I think that is part of the point of the thread. Normal use would mean -----playing as intended. That has no definition, really. When does a cymbal become defective? If degraded or contaminated rawstock is used as a standard practice , then unusual pockets of impurities could be found anywhere and be unrevealed during casting, rolling, hammering and lathing-----even after rotocasting and trimming. That impurity pocket could be revealed as a crack 10 years later, after there has been some metal fatigue develop. I don't think the maker ----certainly in the old days, would consider that to be a defect.