Here's another "opportunist".

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/nvn/msg/2361145953.html

Depends on the cymbals but without them,the kit is worth 1-200 tops.If folks continue to pay large for these cheapo kits,we may see a ton of them re surfacingWalking

Stencil means the drums were made by a Japanese manufacturer, usually Pearl or Tama, and they would put whatever name you wanted on them. If you were a music distributor and you wanted the name of your wife on the drums, they would do it for you. In the case of Zim-Gar, it was most likely an acronym of the names of two partners in a business, like Zimmerman and Garfield combined. They'd use any name as long as it wasn't profane!

What is it with Stewart Kits? There is a local guy here that wants $500.00 for his. (he bought them to resell and paid way too much, not even cleaned up. He knows nothing about drums.)

Ralf: Yeah, there is a huge difference in the 60's and very early 70's chrome on MIJ's vs stuff from the mid 70's on...

Ralf - I wasn't suggesting that all MIJ kits had bad chrome, I was referring to the seller's before and after pictures.

jim

This is my public dissertation of my PhD Doctoral Thesis on the Subject of "Made In Japan" drums of the era considered to be "The Greatest Rock-N-Roll Era of the 60s and 70s...Are you impressed yet...? (laugh expected, tongue in cheek, of course)

"Stencils" are basically copies. They are copied from American and European drum builders (copies in this case, in others it is ladies handbags, shoes, lighters, electronics, po rno, fishing lures, you name it, in today's marketplace), built in huge quantities by low cost companies (at this time they were learning the biz of drumming/music and how to break into it) for a burgeoning market of new, uneasy parents of kids to "get it out of their systems or learn to be rock Gods".

Most of these kits came from the early 60s until the mid 80s for a market created by the unexpectedly massive explosion of rock-n-roll, mainly because of "The Beatles", "The Who", "Pink Floyd", "Grateful Dead", "Al Yankovich", "Flock of Seagulls" and "Led Zeppelin". They continue today, only they are from China, Korea and Taiwan, mostly.

Kids want(ed) drums, and two main things dominate(d) the logic of the market at this time in musical history. Number 1, [COLOR="DarkGreen"]MONEY[/COLOR], or the parents ability to pony up said.

Mom and Pop have a kid that is bugging the daylights of them for a new Ludwig "Downbeat" in OBP because Ringo Starr was playing them, or a Gretsch set of concert toms because Phil Collins loves them, or Rogers...Slingerland and Ludwig had Buddy Rich for a long time...then there is a hundred other "favorites". However Pop knows two things: the family budget and Juniors' propensities.

Since they know both, they make the decision, at either birthday or Christmas, based on this knowledge to buy (A) an American kit they are certain will last as long as it takes this little star to learn how to play and grow on likely quite a bit longer because of the dubious difference in quality (even this is open to debate~up until the mid 70s when the Japanese companies really turned up the quality and started taking on the competition head on, like Star changing over to TAMA (actually changing the face of the company and the entire music industry as well, to the family name, reflecting what they were doing with the guitar industry, which got sued by CBS and others, for copyright issues on guitars) and Yamaha hitting it hard and heavy, leaving Pearl to take up the VERY lucrative entry level and mid-level, for the larger part, of the "MIJ" explosion....) that even if Jr. drops out, he can get most, if not all, of his money back, since that is the most popular color in the world and becoming increasingly difficult to come by in a reasonable time-frame.

OR Because they don't have the extra funds, but Dear Ol' Dad wants to make his son happy, buys a Japanese import kit of dubious or unknown quality, thinking it is a passing fad and at least 150 bucks is easier to swallow than 600, lessons are that much easier on the budget when you've got the extra 450 to spend on them and he really thinks Jr will grow out of it as soon as he learns that (A) he can't play for squat, even after a year of lessons,OR(B) He actually is the progeny of ( "INSERT NAME OF FAVE DRUMMER HERE placeholder) and he can sell them in the paper for at least half to the family of the next Kieth Moon or trade off for that big, fat sounding set of Slingerlands' the boy really wanted in the first place and actually deserves, now. (Or he can learn new drum head technology and tuning techniques...)

There is just so much more to this decision and the reasoning behind it, but man, I don't feel like delving any deeper, considering where I am already, and this is supposed to be a "quick tutorial"...yeah, right.

Number 2, QUALITY, or the lack, or perceived lack, thereof.

Most of these early kits where, yes I will say it, of low quality.

That said however, the reality of the SOUND had much more to do with understanding of sonic embellishment than the actual quality of the drums themselves.

Look at many of the "vintage drum guys" of today and they will tell you they have an MIJ kit of some description in their collection for practice or gigging or even recording, because they are able to control the sound so much easier than some of their other, newer kits.

Many of the reasons, in theory, are very sound, many are because they understand so much better today than 30-40 years ago the actual tuning abilities of those same drums they hated because they understand so much more about head selection, edge preparation and other tuning tricks than when they were 12 years old. Big deal? I say yes because you can make some minor changes to these old "beater" drums and they sound fantastic. I have a kit that sounds like a set cannons. They don't project well, but up close they sound toasty warm and fatter than a sow ready to lay piglets.

Today, we call them "knock-offs". Basically imported goods made to look like another companies goods for far less. It was not really frowned upon because they did not try to call themselves by the same name as the company they were emulating. However Gretsch, Ludwig and Rogers did not put up with too much of the "emulation" of parts. Bud Slingerland was notoriously "tight" and some would say he saw this as a compliment to his good designs. The others called it downright copyright infringement.

More to come, if you want it.............Party

Well.....maybe the pies are worth a look. He does mention some interesting possibilities. However, $500.00 is steep, even $CDN.

So, if someone wanted a good gigging kit, and even a pretty fair studio kit, these would be a good choice. I mean look, you can buy a good intermediate modern kit of used Gretsch mid-lines for about 350-500, no pies.

These are, really, pretty good drums. If someone knows what they are doing with them and can make the requisite upgrades, they are worth a good offer, cash in hand. He likely won't get many face meetings, so whoever shows up, cash in hand, gets a good deal. And my guess is, depending on stands and cymbals, 300ish is a good deal...if the cymbals are good stuff.

It gets worse.

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rds/msg/2378178341.html

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/nvn/msg/2376207686.html

That first kit...I don't know......

I would go over at look at the cymbals.......they look good..............could be 602'a/old A's.....then well worth it!

If someone listed an 82 Yugo for $9500-is it WORTH $9500?I know,as an experienced drummer,what MIJ/MIT's are worth-to ME.NOT $700.Does it include $500 worth of vintage cymbals?Probably-I repeat-probably not.Why would a pro drummer in the late 60's outfit a $200 MIJ set with 602's?

I say this-you can get some beautiful tone out of these era drums,providing you know how to tweak them.Especially the 9-ply gray painted roundover edge drums.But part of the fun-mystiqe is not paying "all the money".Why pay all the money for those,when you could easily buy a Luddy Rocker for the same money?For the cool pearl coverings?Whatever.....the red diamond pearl won't keep the bass from rolling over when the crappy spur lets go,the bass mounted cymbal arm tips,or the snares keep disengaging automaticly as you play.BUT.....people pay $150 for empty cereal boxes.

If someone pays $700-they are worth $700-but not to me.