Yes I am familiar with this site, and yes this information is incorrect.

I'm the originator and sole inventor of all things having anything to do with cymbal timeline dating. Anything else that you'll currently find on the internet pertaining to this subject simply showcases examples of me being aped by the monkeys.

The buck stops here.

Drumaholic is not joking about this. He is in fact the acknowledged originator of the Zildjian timeline as he points out. Any other timeline references on the net are based on his research and often contain inaccuracies. The stamp naming conventions and the periods they cover are the result of his years of research. It has become the standard reference for these cymbals as evidenced by not only the copycat sites, but the references to his time lines in the majority of eBay auctions of vintages Zildjians, both A and K.

The Transition stamp you referenced is actually a term Drumaholic used to describe a very distinctive stamp appearing on A Zildjians, not Ks, in the '40's to early '50s.

I thought I'd follow up on this so you don't waste your time trying to convince him with timeline data you've seen elsewhere.

Great information.

Please let me know the site/URL where I can go for the "Correct" information.

Many Thanks.

Randy

Unfortunately I can't help you with that. I have printed information which I extracted years ago from a cymbal forum where Drumaholic is no longer a member. His later research has uncovered additional changes to it, but I don't have those updates except for some comments he's made on this site.

Its my understanding that because of various abuses of his research, and of him personally, over the years that Drumaholic is loathe to post his updated timeline. If his current timeline is available somewhere, I am not aware of it. Perhaps he will supply you some feedback on this.

Various sites online have information gleaned from his earlier timeline. Some of the information on those sites may be correct, and some may not. But, they are definitely not current. When in doubt, a specific query to Drumaholic will usually clarify the matter.

Yep, until Drumaholic decides release his extensive research and make us all "instant experts", (to coin his own phrase from another thread) we will have to be content with his case-by-case responses to our questions.

Beats the heck out of not knowing, and, gratefully, it's free.

We are very fortunate to have him around here, along with some other extremely knowledgeable folk.

Thanks to them all !

Kev

On the matter of published timelines being "incorrect" or "wrong": Anything which is published gets out of date as new data is uncovered. Consider a few very recent threads here. From memory, we have been treated to a 24" K Zildjian with a stamp not previously seen on 24" sized K Zildjians, and a 1950s large stamp A which appears hammered on both sides. And each time a cymbal (or drum kit with cymbals) appears which has excellent provenience (say the receipt from its purchase new) then new information on dates flow into the system.

This is how science works. It is how archaeology has worked for a century. We dig up artifacts with better provenience and these are studied and placed in the timeline based on morphological and decorative attributes (and yes "makers marks" and stamps) and the timelines keeps changing as a result. In the old days when I still worked in archaeology I contributed to obscure revisions of ceramic sequences (timelines) myself. That was decades before I heard of K Zildjian and Drumaholic timelines. So I would tend to give more general credit to the scientists who actually invented these ideas many decades ago. After that credit is given, I give credit to Drumaholic for getting people interested in certain scruffy old cymbals from Istanbul. Drumaholic put in the hard yards to make it happen.

I do think it remains a pity that the final "virtuous cycle" of science remains broken. Results need to be published, along with methodological details, so that others can review and contribute to the ongoing understanding. Break this process (as has happened in this case) and one person carries the burden of doing all the work, and they also carry the information to their grave. Then archaeologists get involved centuries later... :cool:

While I understand your point with regard to the altruism of sharing knowledge gained through research, Drumaholic is neither a scientist nor professional historian. His research is his own and he has no obligation to share it with anyone. His real career, which I will not divulge, is just about as far from researching the history of cymbals as you can get. While many of us would wish he was willing to publish his findings online, I can attest to the fact that he once did.

As I pointed out, I have paper copies of his A. Zildjian, K. Zildjian and K. Zildjian & Cie timelines, complete with photos and descriptions, from April 2005.They were available until a few years back on another very prominent cymbal webste here in the USA. I am aware of some of the issues that occured on that site and some of the reasons he is currently less willing to publish all his findings. I for one, am just glad he did the reseach in the first place.

His knowledge goes far beyond knowing when a particular cymbal was manufactured. And, with regard to the 24" Intermediate you mentioned, he is the first to admit when he learns something new, and is eager to share that knowledge with us. If this sounds like I'm the president of his fan club, I'm not. But..if someone starts one, I'll join!

I agree completely with you BosLover. As a moderator of the "another very prominent cymbal website" I am well aware of the historical issues involved (and his day job).

Drumaholic you have my full support in your decision to not publish. I am sad that you will not not publish, but I am happy that you have a home here from which to dispense your golden wisdom (albeit in tiny nuggets). That's completely your choice.

I take a different path on my own Paiste 602/Sound Creation research which is freely available to anyone in spreadsheet form (over 1700 data records now from 2005 to present) as is all my research on Ludwig serial numbers and date stamps around the 1969 transition from keystone to blue/olive badges, and my less complete price info on Ludwig kits and snares. But that's just me.

Drumaholic: I hold no paper or electronic copies of your timelines in honor of your position. BosLover: you do what you will with your existing copies of his timelines which have since been withdrawn at his own request. Each to his own.

On the contrary its not true that I’ve decided not to publish. I just don't have the time to build a web-site and do the daily work that will be required to keep it up.

Some people think I don't want to give out this information out because I'm secretive, or stingy, or paranoid, or whatever. The truth is that I'd like to give this stuff out once again. I've just had to make the decision that I just can't handle it and my job at the same time, so this is going to be my retirement project.

So until then I'll just have to give this info out piecemeal as it is requested. What I've got in stored in my computer is one sh*t-load of information much of which hasn't even been mentioned publicly yet.

Thanks for the clarification Bill. I support you in deciding not to publish because you don't have time to build and maintain a web site. My support and admiration is certainly not conditional on what your reasons are. I'm way behind (two years) on my own analysis and production of nice summaries for the data sets I collect and maintain. So I'm not exactly walking the talk on rapid publication of updates. :(

I really appreciate all the work you have put in over the years. "The hard yards" as I called them before.