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  #1  
Old 08-24-2017, 05:56 PM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Ok, the title says most of it. I confess that I own more sets of Hi Hats than my wife thinks is necessary. One of those sets measures 14 1/8 inches in diameter.

Mine are from just after the Trans Stamp (1954-55-56 or so) and sport a 7/16 center hole for good measure.

At first I just figured it was either an odd thing Zildjian only did in the 1950s or maybe they're repurposed crashes (705g/825g). But then a couple of weeks ago I was at the house of a pro with WAY more cymbals than I have and he whipped out a Z HH top from the late 1990s (I have that exact cymbal in 14) when I asked him. Son a gun was 14 1/8 inches too. Not cut down at all. He said that was how he got it.

__________

Questions: Why make what amounts to a very limited amount of such an odd size?

Custom order?

Artist series?

Does anyone out there have experience with these things?

(and don't get me wrong, they're great cymbals. they're just odd.)

Pete

Last edited by Peedy; 08-25-2017 at 02:49 AM. Reason: Deleting faulty image links
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  #2  
Old 08-24-2017, 08:15 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

I've got a pair of late 1950s hats which are around 14 1/8" in diameter. If I nest them in some of my other pairs it is straightforward to see the difference in diameter. I've also got some which are slightly smaller than 14" in diameter.

I wouldn't look for a "reason" for some cymbals to be slightly larger or smaller. Cutting to diameter is not the exact process you might expect. What you are observing is within the natural variation in finished diameters. Most are quite accurate, a few are further out from the specification set on the machine. Since hat pairings are selected at the factory to fit together one might expect there to be fewer pairs which are different diameters than one would get by a random pairing process. But once you have enough hats you should start to see the natural variation by cross pairing them. The same level of variation exists in crashes and rides, but since we don't tend to use them in pairs we don't tend to notice the natural variation in the same way that we do with hats.

I'd be interested in seeing photos of your hi hats. The trademark stamp, the whole hat from above, and the whole hat from below. Hi hat cymbals from that (1954-1956) era are relatively rare. The diameter distribution for cymbals with the Large Stamp (1955ish-1957ish) shows a surplus of 21-26 inch cymbals and a deficit of 12-20 inch cymbals. Large by stamp and large by diameter seem to go together based on a tabulation of 1000 Avedis cymbals. But yes, they do tend to have a 7/16" mounting hole diameter if it hasn't been enlarged later on to fit on modern stands.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 08-24-2017 at 09:17 PM. Reason: added more diameter info
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  #3  
Old 08-24-2017, 09:22 PM
jaghog jaghog is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Don't they sound great
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1968 pink champagne Ludwig holly wood With 18 ft and downbeat snare, and jazz fest, supra
1961 cob super classic 400
some nice bronze pies
Sweet 1964 wmp super Classic with matching. Jazz
1967 obp holly wood




once the brass ceases to glitter, and the drum looses its luster, and the stage remains dark, all you have left is the timbre of family. E- bay gd1825
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:48 PM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
I'd be interested in seeing photos of your hi hats. The trademark stamp, the whole hat from above, and the whole hat from below. Hi hat cymbals from that (1954-1956) era are relatively rare. The diameter distribution for cymbals with the Large Stamp (1955ish-1957ish) shows a surplus of 21-26 inch cymbals and a deficit of 12-20 inch cymbals. Large by stamp and large by diameter seem to go together based on a tabulation of 1000 Avedis cymbals. But yes, they do tend to have a 7/16" mounting hole diameter if it hasn't been enlarged later on to fit on modern stands.
The top is home while the bottom is in my bag with the kit I play a couple times a week (played last night). I'll figure out how to put up a photo of the top now and the bottom tomorrow.

I dated them using your site guide (har) so I'm assuming I'm good there (though I may have stopped after checking out just the top). There are obvious signs of hand hammering, especially when held next to my first gen New Beat Bottom. The hammering on the 50s cymbal is also on both sides, unlike the NB.

The condition is unusually nice (top especially) and the top cymbal has an strange letter or mark under the bell. The mark made me suspicious that they were custom or artist cymbals.

Pete
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:53 PM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaghog View Post
Don't they sound great
I love the way they sound. My struggle with them is that they are slightly off center from what I play. I've got a heavy set of Zildjians I love (A rock bottom and Z Series Top) but I usually leave them home too.

The versatility of my New Beats have ruined me that way.

Pete
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  #6  
Old 08-24-2017, 10:46 PM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Geez, first time using iCloud. I can shrink them if that's an issue.

Pete
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:15 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

It looks like you tried to embed some images from iCloud in your original post, but it hasn't worked.

The preferred method here is to use the built in attachment system, although I find it clumsy and buggy. You need to limit the size of the photos, and it is best to use very simple names with no special characters and no embedded blanks.

An out of date thread giving information (and links to 7 year old videos) is found here:

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=1713
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #8  
Old 08-25-2017, 12:43 AM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Many thanks. I've never used a forum with a picture system this backwards. Most others I frequent from time to time are just drag and drop.

Pete
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:18 AM
jaghog jaghog is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peedy View Post
I love the way they sound. My struggle with them is that they are slightly off center from what I play. I've got a heavy set of Zildjians I love (A rock bottom and Z Series Top) but I usually leave them home too.

The versatility of my New Beats have ruined me that way.

Pete
I am very open minded for hats as I am always trying different combos and usually come up with better matched than the factory ...try different ones , you'll be surprised
Gary
__________________
1968 pink champagne Ludwig holly wood With 18 ft and downbeat snare, and jazz fest, supra
1961 cob super classic 400
some nice bronze pies
Sweet 1964 wmp super Classic with matching. Jazz
1967 obp holly wood




once the brass ceases to glitter, and the drum looses its luster, and the stage remains dark, all you have left is the timbre of family. E- bay gd1825
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2017, 11:49 AM
Peedy Peedy is offline
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Default Re: Zildjian 14 1/8 Hi Hats - WTF?!? (Why were They Formed?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaghog View Post
I am very open minded for hats as I am always trying different combos and usually come up with better matched than the factory ...try different ones , you'll be surprised
Gary
You're totally right, though it did take me a few years to figure that out.

Actually, my New Beats are that way. My bottom is a mid 60s (early ink) and the top a mid 70s (hollow ink). They're both unusually light for NBs so I had to look around to match them.

I use the 50s pair just to break up the set but they would probably feel more at home in a retro dance or bebop jazz band. They sound amazing but what I play is usually more in the soft to medium rock category.

Pete

ps - I sent the photos out to zenstat so they'll get up eventually I'm sure, by me or him.
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