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  #1  
Old 06-26-2017, 03:36 PM
Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Hi all. I've owned a lovely 602 ride for many years. I bought it second hand for a very inexpensive price around about the 1990s.
I think it was made in the 1970s but perhaps someone could confirm.

The first number of the 6 digital serial is 5, so I'm assuming 1975? I believe the first digit always represents the specific year.

I believe from 1981 they started printing a small 'Paiste' directly above the serial number, but there's nothing written above mine. I just have the serial number which is stamped on the top of the cymbal underneath the bell.


The cymbal is in good condition but a bit grubby so needs a clean. There's one tiny indent underneath. It's very crashable and visibly flexes when played. It says 'THIN' though a bit faded. Any idea if 1975 seems right and approximate market price if I wanted to sell it? Not sure I will sell though as it's a gorgeous sounding jazz ride with a very buttery feel under the stick. I've attached some photos and a short video. Thanks.







Last edited by Merlin5; 06-26-2017 at 04:22 PM.
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:39 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Yes 1975. The year for yours is established by a combination of the serial number first digit, the red model ink, the Paiste 602 black ink above the bell, and the hollow font ink Paiste on the underside of the cymbal. And yours has the less common Outline Version of the stamp. See this for the three versions:

http://black.net.nz/paiste.html

The Outline version doesn't give a specific year of production that I know of so far. But it's early days for data collection. The THIN model was part of the line up in the 1970s. You can see the description of it here:

http://www.paiste-only.com/paistewik...php?title=Thin

Note that the THIN is not the same model as a THIN CRASH. Two different models. When it comes to weights the wiki has the THIN under the group: Crashes which isn't quite right.

http://www.paiste-only.com/paistewik...602_20%22_Thin

As far as price goes, my current best estimate based on 20 sales is $290 with half selling for between $265 and $320. Prices are quite variable. I'm in the midst of a complete reanalysis of 10 years of 602 and Sound Creation sales data, but that will have to do until I can get more work done. The closest comparison is to my earlier work on prices (2011) and using the 20" crash category:


Spot checks since then tell me that not much has changed in terms of used 602 prices. But the final word on that can only be known after I finish the full analysis.

You can assist my research by weighing your cymbal for me. I keep track of weights, and will add it to my database. I have thousands of weights, but since many older 602s have lost their model ink designation every example which does still have the model ink on helps add to the picture. My weights get percolated into the wiki and yours will take its place to help others. Thanks in advance.

Steve
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 06-26-2017 at 05:44 PM.
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  #3  
Old 06-26-2017, 09:53 PM
Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Hi zenstat, fantastic information, thank you! That translates as about 227 to 250 pound sterling. Not bad. I had just been told by someone to post at Cymbalholics and that someone called zenstat (yourself of course) would have the answers. So I just registered there but you're here anyway!

I don't trust my scales, I got 1905g and then I got 1995g. In fact I tested my ufip hi-hats as well. They came out at 2449g but ufip had written the weights on each hat totalling 2404g. But I'm using bathroom scales and reading it in pounds as it doesn't go grams, and then converting afterwards to grams.

I think I'll buy some better scales tomorrow and give you a more accurate reading.
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  #4  
Old 06-27-2017, 12:56 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Ha. I have a reputation. I've just approved your registration at Cymbalholic, so you should get an email telling you that.

Based on the wiki weights for THINs yours should be around 2000g. So your weight is in the ballpark. If those UFIP hats are telling us something it is that your bathroom scale method isn't that bad. If you don't feel like splashing out on a set of scales, you might also be able to take it in and weigh it at your local post office.

As far as prices in the UK (Europe generally Brexit nothwithstanding) it seems like most used cymbal prices are a bit higher (Paiste, Zildjian, etc) but I haven't ever been able to pin down some sort of estimate for just how much higher. International cost comparisons are a tough nut to crack.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #5  
Old 06-27-2017, 02:50 PM
Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Thanks for approving me at Cymbalholics!

Actually the bathroom scales method proved not accurate enough. It needs a minimum weight of a few kg before it will even show a reading. So what I did was stand on the scales, weigh myself then do it again holding the cymbal and seeing what the difference was.

With the scales set to kg, the difference was 1.9kg or 1900g. And set to pounds, the difference was 4.2 pounds (1905g) and later it changed to 4.4 pounds (1995g). So not very good, lol.

Today though, I did what you suggested and popped along to the post office. So the true weight is actually 1942g. I then bought some scales anyway which confirms the same and confirmed my ufip written weights. My scales mostly showed a gram or two higher or lower, but I moved the cymbals about on the scales until they read the exact same weights.

So 1942g is pretty light. The wiki shows weights for the thin being 2079g from 1974, and mine is a good 137g less. Perhaps this makes it more rare, even more sought after?

Last edited by Merlin5; 06-27-2017 at 02:52 PM.
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  #6  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:11 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Thanks for the weight confirmation. Yours is at the lighter end of the ones I've recorded. There is always a bit of weight variation within any particular model and diameter. I wouldn't be surprised at 100g-150g differences for the THIN model, given what I've seen with other models. But it's hard to be sure because we have so few examples of 1970s 602s with the model ink still on.

Here is a recent sale in Europe which is still up on eBay:

www.ebay.com/itm/263001430527

Like yours in era and 2170g. I've recorded older sales at 1904g, 1905g, 1950g. These 3 were pre serial number, but missing the model ink. So they could be the THIN CRASH model. I have one at 2006g which did have the THIN model ink. And for context I've also recorded two sales of THIN CRASH 20" 602s with the model ink on them: a Blue Label at 2098g and a reissue at 1901g. I've got plenty more weights for 20" 602s, but lacking the model ink. The long term plan is to plot all the weights with the few with known model annotated so we can see if just knowing the weight can predict the model. I don't have high hopes for it working because I suspect the difference in the THIN vs the THIN CRASH models is in the degree of taper (thinning of the metal near the edge) and the weight distributions overlap. Based on analysis of weights for different diameters and models, it has long looked like Blue Label 602s were targeting a bit heavier weight range, but it is a subtle effect.

As far as pricing goes, lighter does seem to attract a small price advantage but again the effect is hard to estimate because the effect of production era (Blue Label attract higher prices in general) is mixed in with the effect of condition (Blue Label tend to be better condition with the ink intact) and teasing those apart to then see the effect of weight on its own is tricky. Especially when one can see what seem like identical cymbals for for $100 difference in price from day to day.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 06-27-2017 at 04:26 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:38 PM
Merlin5 Merlin5 is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Thanks for that ebay link. It appears not to be for sale now. Don't know if he sold it or listing ended. I have to say, 180 is a bit disappointing. I really thought we'd be talking double that for vintage 602. Take a look at this though. A 24" 602 at a crazy price! I guess it's one of the new models?

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Paiste-Formula...257Ciid%253A35
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  #8  
Old 06-27-2017, 04:59 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

The image has been updated to say SOLD across it on eBay (summary page you get to first, not the details) which is usually a sign that it did sell. However, sometimes cymbals which appear sold on that basis to get relisted as well. Their outcome code system isn't 100% these days. That one was a relist and it hasn't been relisted since, so I presume sold.

I don't take too much from one unusually low sale, nor from one unusually high sale. That's all part of the variation, which is why you need a large enough sample size to start to get to grips with the variation. Also that one was in Poland, which might put some buyers off because of added shipping costs. Hard to be sure, but some potential buyers don't trust the postal systems of other countries.

That 24" is vintage not re-issue. Most likely pre-serial, since they don't mention a serial number. The re-issue ones don't have the pressed in die stamp at all. They just have ink on the top, and a laser serial number (now on the bottom, but in the early re-issues 8 digit serials in the same position as yours). It's in excellent condition. Looks pristine other than missing the ink. But yes it is way outside the expected price range. 24" pre serial 602s go for an expected median price of $450 based on 25 sales. Half sell for between $355 and $570. A delicious THIN sold for $900 in Feb 2017, and it weighed a svelte 3138g. But that was an exceptional price from an exceptional seller (Hazelshould) who tends to get top prices (and supplies top cymbals and after sales service in line with his prices).

An asking price of $1399 suggests this represents advertising your wares by Bentley's Drum Shop. Perhaps a deal will be done off eBay by negotiation. But never say never. It could set a new price record.
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 06-27-2017 at 06:36 PM. Reason: added info on 8 digit serials
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  #9  
Old 06-28-2017, 01:40 PM
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

zenstat,
Really enjoy your work. The above cymbal from Poland lead me to a question. How do you handle shipping costs when logging sold prices? It could be an important variable in regards to actual price. Crazy highs and lows aside, we've all seen sold prices that look low only to find that the shipping costs were high. Likewise there are the sold prices that look high but the shipping was low or free. On many items adding shipping costs to the sold price moves the highs and lows closer to a center or actual total price paid.
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  #10  
Old 06-28-2017, 03:58 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Vintage 20" Paiste 602 Thin Ride

Thanks slingerfan. Glad you find it informative.

I generally don't include shipping costs in price reporting, but taking them out isn't always easy. When I started out I wasn't keeping track as carefully so some shipping might be included in individual sales where they came with free shipping. Sometimes I recorded free shipping but I wasn't 100% diligent. On the other side of the equation, in the early days of my Paiste tracking eBay let you see who the buyer was and their location. So up until maybe 2009 (not sure of the year?) I have information on location for both buyer and seller. What I haven't done yet for my Paiste database is go through it all and retrospectively code the extra information I've written in free text into specific fields and codes for analysis.

In 2015 I started to use a new form in my Avedis Zildjian and old K data collection which includes more complete shipping info so I can reliably tell free shipping, and I record the stated shipping cost. That was an interesting exercise just seeing how different sellers have quite different shipping costs for the same diameter of cymbal! I suspect it depends a lot on what you say the shipping box size is. I have my shipping location set to Los Angeles for all the costs.

Soon I'm going to redo my entire Paiste data collection regime to incorporate the extra info I added when I started to do Zildjian collection, plus a few new fields. And the Zildjian extended info was itself what I added having seen was lacking in my Paiste collection. I wish I had started out with a more complete collection regime, but I was trying to keep it minimalist and quick. I recently went through retrospectively tidying up all my Pasite serial number info because some specific questions arose about 22" 602/Transitional/Sound Creation Dark Rides and what serial numbers exist. I still have a bit more to do to handle post 80s serial numbers and their prefixes (the PAISTE or PAISTE 602 or pAisTe changes).
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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