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  #11  
Old 10-27-2016, 02:47 AM
infiniteninjas infiniteninjas is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

By god you're right! Mine is just much more faded. Thanks for taking the time to do that.
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2016, 02:10 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

Thanks. I don't want anybody to have to take my word for things. I'm all about presenting my methods and evidence and the importance of letting people judge the weight of evidence for themselves, as well as making all my raw data freely available on request. So I'm at the public good science end of the spectrum.

This is in contrast to Drumaholic who created those comparison photos and started all the work on timelines and trademarks on cymbals. Drumaholic won't release methods and evidence because he's worried about people copying his work and not giving him credit. In his own words from 2010:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumaholic View Post
I can help people analyze their trademarks without going into every detail as to how I came did it or I can refuse to hjelp with anything at all. I've chosen the first option.

You may or may not know this, but for years I had a timeline for both A's and K's posted up on Cymbalholic with photos and detailed explanations about how to identify and date each one. Then along came a guy named Winnie Manserek who took some of my information directly off my timeline and posted it on his own website claiming it as his own. He helped to convince me that I should remove this information from the internet at least for the time being. I'm waiting for the right time to do this project which will involve a website that will restrict who has access to this information and a few other measures of security. And those who want access to the site will have to pay to get in as well.
We're still waiting for a web site from Drumaholic. Drumaholic and I respectfully agree to disagree about the best strategy to improve the quality of information available to those interested in cymbals. My response to web sites like Winne's one (which is still ranked high in Google searches and used to misidentify cymbals) is to put out what I hope is a better one. You can see my work via the links in my signature.
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Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2016, 03:55 PM
hardbat hardbat is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

I took the OP's image and flipped it, and then put it alongside a real early K con first stamp. The result looks like this:
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2016, 05:52 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Thanks. I don't want anybody to have to take my word for things. I'm all about presenting my methods and evidence and the importance of letting people judge the weight of evidence for themselves, as well as making all my raw data freely available on request. So I'm at the public good science end of the spectrum.

This is in contrast to Drumaholic who created those comparison photos and started all the work on timelines and trademarks on cymbals. Drumaholic won't release methods and evidence because he's worried about people copying his work and not giving him credit. In his own words from 2010:



We're still waiting for a web site from Drumaholic. Drumaholic and I respectfully agree to disagree about the best strategy to improve the quality of information available to those interested in cymbals. My response to web sites like Winne's one (which is still ranked high in Google searches and used to misidentify cymbals) is to put out what I hope is a better one. You can see my work via the links in my signature.
I read your work zen because you give credit to where it belongs. Bill isn`t here as often as you so I can rely on good data from you. If it weren`t for Bill, those stamps wouldn`t have names, if it weren`t for you, our waiting period for info would be long.

Sometimes I wont post here helping someone ID a stamp, but I`ll come and look.
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  #15  
Old 10-27-2016, 08:54 PM
infiniteninjas infiniteninjas is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenstat View Post
Thanks. I don't want anybody to have to take my word for things. I'm all about presenting my methods and evidence and the importance of letting people judge the weight of evidence for themselves, as well as making all my raw data freely available on request. So I'm at the public good science end of the spectrum.

This is in contrast to Drumaholic who created those comparison photos and started all the work on timelines and trademarks on cymbals. Drumaholic won't release methods and evidence because he's worried about people copying his work and not giving him credit. In his own words from 2010:



We're still waiting for a web site from Drumaholic. Drumaholic and I respectfully agree to disagree about the best strategy to improve the quality of information available to those interested in cymbals. My response to web sites like Winne's one (which is still ranked high in Google searches and used to misidentify cymbals) is to put out what I hope is a better one. You can see my work via the links in my signature.
Wow, I'm surprised that anyone would think there's money to be made charging people for such arcane information. I think I'm with you, I share knowledge freely as a pastime on anything I know about, and I would never be jealous about it.
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2016, 10:03 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardbat View Post
I took the OP's image and flipped it, and then put it alongside a real early K con first stamp. The result looks like this:
Interesting. Thanks Scott. I've blown your image up a bit



and added a second image of what's reputed to be a similar aged stamp, although I wouldn't know myself.



It looks to me like there are some portions missing in yours which appear in the other impression, and vice versa. That makes things tricky.

I think I'm still seeing stylistic differences which mean there isn't a close match between the early K Con and the presumed ersatz k. The external bow in the presumed ersatz k is longer than in either of the early K Con examples. Any similar structure in the K Con is not only shorter but not external (meaning not on the outer edge of the composition).

There is also a whole structure present in your early K Con example (and replicated in the other early K Con example) which is entirely missing from the ersatz k.

But now that I've seen these earlier K Con examples the situation isn't as clear as it was. I can't rule out that what we're seeing isn't just two different very early K Con dies, and we happen to have two examples of the same one. This is a good example of why I'm in favor of making examples public so we can replicate the results so far on larger samples.
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Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 10-27-2016 at 10:20 PM.
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2016, 10:46 PM
hardbat hardbat is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

Yeah, I think it looks more like the actual K-con stamp, to my eyes it doesn't look much like the ersatz stamp you posted.
However, to complicate things further, I just noticed this one in one of the comments on Rob Scott's site, which is definitely Italian (the writer says the cymbal says made in Italy):
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2016, 10:58 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

Yes, and Feltium (or whatever it says) is on the list of UFIP stencil brands



We can be forgiven for having trouble with these given that they are meant to deceive buyers into thinking they have a connection with Turkey. They even write Constantinople on them.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #19  
Old 10-27-2016, 11:17 PM
hardbat hardbat is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

I still think the OP's cymbal might be an old K con. Not 100% convinced yet either way.
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  #20  
Old 10-28-2016, 01:24 AM
infiniteninjas infiniteninjas is offline
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Default Re: Mystery Turkish(?) Arabic Stamp - Not an Old K Con

I love this stuff. I find myself wondering whose job it was in Italy to come up with shapes that looked like Arabic lettering.

What if it was someone's job in a non-Roman-alphabet-using state to come up with fake figures that look like European letters? Or cyrillic? I think that would be hilarious.

It's also kind of a racist idea to just artistically riff off Arabic script for profit.
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