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  #41  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:07 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

With the Flats I don't think I ever I notated the changes with the patent stamps anywhere will have to look at some pics to check on that.

Imo the earliest of the Flats from 1967 (not stamped as SSS) will be stamped Space Sound (thin or medium) instead of Flat Ride

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-14-2019 at 08:32 AM.
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  #42  
Old 08-14-2019, 04:44 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

One change in the patent list (for both SE hats and Flats) is not just the list of countries. It seems to be the inclusion or exclusion of the phrase "Other Countries Pending" at the bottom of the list.

For SE hats I've got examples from 1978 and 1979 which do not have the "Other Countries Pending". One 15" pre serial has the same list of 6 countries but with the "Other Countries Pending".



For Flat Rides I've got examples from 1978, 1979, 1983 which do not have the "Other Countries Pending". A pre serial SSS4 has the same list of 3 countries but with the "Other Countries Pending".

So pending more data it looks like the "Other Countries Pending" phrase was dropped mid 70s so that is another way to distinguish a 1971 cymbal from a 1981 cymbal.

And one other detail. I own a 20" Flat Ride with Pat. Pending and it has the black ink saying pAisTe Formula 602. I've included this image so that others reading this thread will be sure what we mean.



Note that this isn't a picture of mine because the ink is so faint I can't photograph it (yet). I owned it for a few years before I noticed it in just the right light. The rest of the ink is very well preserved top and bottom. I can't even be 100% whether it just had pAisTe alone or did have the Formula 602 underneath. I don't know if there was a pre serial number stage where there was just pAisTe black ink without the Formula 602 underneath. I do know there is a later time (1978) for pAisTe black ink on the early Sound Creations as well as other series, so obviously they had that ink stamp.

Anyway, the first black ink pAisTe Formula 602 may come a few months earlier the we currently think. Certainly before the first serial numbers. It comes down to precisely when the Pat. Pending ink stamp got replaced with one saying that it was patented. We have plenty of evidence that the black ink saying pAisTe Forumula 602 went on before serial numbers, and we should really improve our use of language so that it is clear. I've been using the shorthand "black label period" knowing the underlying distinctions but not being crystal clear for other people. We need to emphasize that the calling a 602 "black label" does is not exactly the same thing as calling it a 602 with a serial number. I will make amends.

Summarizing what we've gone through so far it seems like Paiste Customer Services and many posters on the Internet have no idea that we now have 3 orders of magnitude more data then a few years ago. We also have an order of magnitude more ways to tell a 1971 cymbal from a 1981 cymbal than they have ever imagined. For me the most interesting question at this point is how do we assist Paiste Customer Services to change their answer script to match the data? That would be a start.
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Last edited by zenstat; 08-14-2019 at 08:48 PM. Reason: photos inlined
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  #43  
Old 08-14-2019, 08:22 PM
jda jda is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

You don't have to date them. Just take them straight to bed.

Last edited by jda; 08-26-2019 at 08:29 PM.
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  #44  
Old 08-20-2019, 07:15 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

I think there most likely was a phase in 602 where they stamped "PAISTE" over the bell before the two-line stamped was introduced. As the first 2002s w/o serials have this one-line stamp chances are 602s with this stamp and no serial are most likely from 1971 imo but they could certainly be from a little sooner maybe 1970. I would say it can't be from too much earlier as very few 602s are seen with the one-line stamp. In addition to later being used on SC I have seen the one-line "PAISTE" stamp used on the SUPER line as well as on the last of Ludwig Standard and Ludwig Stanople. It seems some Dixies also got it as well.



So again it seems like there may have been a phase when they used the one-line "PAISTE" for a spell (maybe late 71 / early 72) and then quickly came out with the 2-line stamps that had the series name underneath the Paiste.

Also what makes pinning this down to a higher degree of accuracy very difficult is the possibility or maybe better to say probability that sometimes older, unsold preserial cymbals were dressed up with the "newer" stamps that one would associate with the serial phase 602s once they were moved out of the factory.

We see plenty of later examples of this with Black Label 404 and 505s that have the original metal stamp emboss but were redone in the color silk screen ink to make them look as new as possible. Sound Creations out there like that as well.

What is interesting is that on the Paiste Wall O' Stamps picture I have (taken in the mid-70s) they had an actual "SUPER" stamp but I have never seen this ink on a SUPER cymbal. When I find them with ink they have the Paiste stamp above the bell and are typed stamped as Medium. This stamp must of only been used for a short period of time and no examples of it have surfaced it.

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-20-2019 at 10:05 AM.
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  #45  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:11 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Here is a pic of the 4 Country patent stamp this was used right around 1970 maybe into 1971.

The six country stamp definitely comes into use by 1972 as I found it stamped on a pair of SE with a Bottom: 20xxxx and Top 21xxxx serial. It is possible it could date as far back as 4/1970 as that's when the German patent number was granted.

Do you have any evidence of the 6 country stamp on preserials? I am guessing you do.
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Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-20-2019 at 08:42 AM.
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  #46  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:54 AM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Steve, looks like 1975 was the last year of "Other Countries Pending" on the SE Patent Stamp.

Found an early 1976 pair of 2002s without the additional text, same goes for 1977.

Last edited by monkeyboy827; 08-20-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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  #47  
Old 08-25-2019, 03:30 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

And here is a textbook example of how people get 1971 for a 1981 serial number if they don't know about the changes to the Patent List and are misled by the interwebs (and Paiste) saying serial numbers started in 1970 when they mean "the early 70s". The patent list which doesn't have Other Countries Pending at the bottom confirms 1981. If you read the seller's story with this in mind you will see he bought them used decades after they were produced and does not indicate that any accurate information on a purchase date was obtained when he bought them in England.

Quote:
VINTAGE 1971 Paiste 14" Sound Edge Hi-hat cymbals -- Matched Pair (SN# 110397/8)

If you're viewing this auction, you know it pains me to put these babies on sale! I bought these in England a few years ago and besides some finger smudges on the top cymbal and slight label wear, you can tell these are in excellent condition--absolutely no keyholing or major dings, scratches, or whatever else you might be worried about. Again, these are a matched pair of 14" Paiste Sound Edge (SE) Hi-hats made in 1971, which was the first year that Paiste made these cymbals, and also the first year they put serial numbers on their cymbals, so it doesn't get much better than these! Again, those Serial Numbers are 110397 for the top hat and 110398 for the bottom.

I purchased a Giant Beat set earlier this year, so I sold my hodge podge of cymbals I had, except for these. Eventually, I'll figure out a hi-hat combo that works for me, but for now, these hats are just too loud/bright and IMHO don't work well with the rest of my Giant Beat setup.
eBay item 293185073053
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__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Cymbal Wiki || A one stop shop for all things cymbal
Paiste portal click here || Avedis Zildjian portal click here || K Zildjian Istanbul portal click here

Last edited by zenstat; 08-25-2019 at 05:11 PM. Reason: clarified
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  #48  
Old 08-26-2019, 02:59 PM
monkeyboy827 monkeyboy827 is offline
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Default Re: How to date Black Label Paiste 2002 Cymbals

Another giveaway is the Hi Hat text stamped on the top of the cymbals. This was added in late 1978 or early 1979. Prior to the that the stamping was just SE Top or SE Bottom
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