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  #1  
Old 10-09-2010, 03:25 PM
french22 french22 is offline
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Default Gretsch ID help needed

Hi,

I have bought recently this Gretsch kit. From the #1 Stop Sign type it's dated 1972-1979.

Do you think that it can be dated more accurately from these paper tag pictures and some details of harware?

Unfortunately this kit has been modified in its past: internal dampers removed, original BD spurs replaced by Tama ones and BD claws replaced by Rogers ones. Still vintage but not original.





I have a lot of cleaning ahead no big repair in view

Thanks for your help
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  #2  
Old 10-09-2010, 08:28 PM
teverson-sr teverson-sr is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

I'm guessing the latter half of this time span.My concert tom Gretsch set was purchased used in 78,and had the earlier clip-style double tom mount but everything else mechanically the same.Finding a date of the introduction of the hex/ball mount will help you.ATTENTION GRETSCH GUYS.....
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  #3  
Old 10-09-2010, 10:42 PM
Drums008 Drums008 is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Nice drums. At some point Baldwin started to black out or cut the paper tags to get rid of the "Guaranteed for life" part of the tag. I would guess early '70's
__________________
1964 Gold Sparkle Round badge 20,12,14
1970 SS Badge, Blue Satin Flame 22,13,16
1962 Tangerine sparkle, Gretsch. 18, 12,14, 5x14
1960's/70's Slingerland 18,12,14 silver sparkle
194? Slingerland "Rolling Bomber" Blue/white Duco 28,13,14,7x14
1940's Radio Kings. 26,13,16 WMP finish
Gretsch Anniversary sparkle 22,13,16, 5.5x14
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  #4  
Old 10-10-2010, 12:30 AM
AZBill AZBill is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Bon Jour, French22;

I own similar vintage Gretsch drums that I bought used, in 1978. At the time, I was told they were 2 to 3 years old. I also have the "Monster" double-tom holder on my kick and the hex/ball mounts on my toms. I will check my SN's against yours, to see how we line up. These are great drums. I've had so many studio folks compliment on the sound and had a few make offers to purchase them - I'd never sell them.

Enjoy!!
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  #5  
Old 10-11-2010, 02:17 AM
french22 french22 is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Bonjour Messieurs

Thanks a lot for your help. Now I have a better knowledge of this kit dating: you're better than Carbon14 method

Once the clean-up will be completed, I'll post some pictures.
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  #6  
Old 10-11-2010, 08:09 PM
AZBill AZBill is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Hey F22;

Your one mounted tom (45466) is earlier than mine, by 166 units; the other one is quite a few ****her up the road. Your BD is later than mine, by 31,861 units. Not knowing yearly production #'s, I have no idea of the year of your higher SN drums (Gretsch probably doesn't either).

Anyway, Hope this helps and I look forward to your after pics, all set up.

Enjoy 'em, they're great-sounding drums!

B
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  #7  
Old 10-12-2010, 12:32 AM
french22 french22 is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBill View Post
Anyway, Hope this helps and I look forward to your after pics, all set up.
Thanks a lot Bill, it sure helps. Got a better picture of this kit age.

We are really insane: we're talking about numbers on paper tags inside a wood shell covered by a sort of plastic film on both side after all

Anyway, I feel better after receiving your informations but just won't try to explain that to my wife.

BTW which heads have you mounted on? Mines are shot and I was thinking about putting SK.II on BD and Vintage A"s on toms for a "classic rock" sound.
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  #8  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:50 PM
AZBill AZBill is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Insane? No, just passionate.

As for heads, I've been using Evans clear hydro's on my tom batter-sides and G1 clears on the reso's. I'm in the midst of changing over to G2 Coated for the batters, to see how that goes. On my 24" kick I have an Emadd on the batter and an EQ1 on the reso - it'll knock a house down. On my snare I use a Hazy 200 snare-side and changing over to a G1 coated for the batter; I was using a G2, but want to see the difference.

Good luck with the heads.

B
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  #9  
Old 10-13-2010, 10:47 AM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Here is your Carbon Dating Analysis, or at least as close as I can get. I am taking insane/passionate to a new level:

In your post, I see pictures of three different labels:
Model 4415 - Serial Number 45466 (12" Tom) with 1st Style of Orange/White Label
Model 4416 - Serial Number 70727 (13" Tom) with 2nd Style of Orange/White Label
Model 4247 - Serial Number 70885 (22" Bass) with 2nd Style of Orange/White Label

I have been collecting serial number information for about four years trying to see if I can develop a dating guide for Gretsch drums. I am close to publishing my analysis in some form or another soon. Until then, I can offer some points out of the analysis to help with these three drums.

My thoughts:

1. There is disagreement on the usefulness of serial numbers for dating Gretsch drums. Many have written that they are useless and should be disregarded. No interior date stamps exist, Gretsch production records were lost in plant fires and serial number sequences were restarted multiple times, so it gets confusing. However, along with another vintage drum enthusiast and many contributors over the last four years, I have gathered information from over 3400 drums. When this information is analyzed, many clear patterns emerge. Based upon this information, I believe that serial numbers were issued and applied in roughly sequential order, and restarted twice. All of my comments are dependent upon this conclusion being correct.

2. There is (in my opinion) too much false precision in the dating of vintage drums from serial numbers. The dating guides contained on Vintage Drum Guide http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/serial_numbers.html provide useful estimates, but can not be used to provide pinpoint manufacture dates. The three Ludwig guides attempt to correlate the interior date stamps and the serial numbers on badges. Likewise, for Slingerland, Dr. Wenk provides a graphical tool to provide date ranges, but again, his guide is not meant to provide a precise manufacture date. For those who read the accompanying articles, numerous anomalies and exceptions are noted. Some are explained by documented reports of manufacturing procedures which did not use shells in date order or serial numbers in sequential order. Other explanations are offered for drums which do not fit the patterns, while other variations remain mysteries today. However, in practice (as seen on numerous eBay listings every day), drum owners routinely declare with apparent certainty and precision the date of manufacture of their drums based solely upon serial numbers. This may help sell drums, but it misleads buyers and confuses the dating issue. [Stepping off soapbox now]

The dating guide dealing with Gretsch that I have been developing provides an estimate that comes within a year or so. Efforts to refine it further are ongoing. Please do not take the estimates as gospel truth. They are just one guy’s opinion based upon information collected about Gretsch drums.

3. Multiple physical characteristics also changed over time with Gretsch drums. In the decade when your drums were made, changes were made to the label style, mount style, color of ink used to indicate model number on label, badge style and other characteristics.

4. Your tom with Serial Number 45466 is the oldest of those pictured. It has the older style of label (OW1), which was used from the beginning of labels on Round Badge drums in around 1962 and continued through to the Stop Sign Badge drums through about 1976. I would estimate that this drum was made in the 1975-76 timeframe.

5. Your other drums with Serial Numbers 70727 and 70885 are from a few years later. The have the later style of Orange/White Label (OW2) which does not have the Lifetime Shell Guarantee language. Label OW2 was used from about 1976 through about 1979. Three different style badges used this type of label, the first style Stop Sign Badge like yours (what John Sheridan calls Stop Sign Badge #1, shortened to SSB#1 here), and the two that followed it.

6. All of your drums have the SSB#1 which was used until about 1978 (or 1979 as you indicate in your post). The SSB#1 style badge was used through about Serial Number 72000, so your two newer drums would have been some of the last couple of thousand made with that style of badge. Therefore, it appears that the two newer drums are from about 1978.

7. A total of about 92,000 serial numbers were used on drums which also had SSB#1. Although there is some disagreement about when SSB#1 was used, it is generally thought to have been introduced in about 1970/71. In your initial post, you list 1972-1979 for this badge. I shift that a little and assuming a date range of 1970 to 1978 (8 years). This range may be slightly off, but fits with the information I have and John Sheridan’s article on Badges which is reprinted at the Gretsch website. http://www.gretschdrums.com/?fa=historybadges With about 92,000 drums made in about 8 years, an average annual production rate of 11,500 is calculated for drums with SSB#1. Note that this does not address year to year variation.

8. I use the production rate calculated in #7 as a double check against the estimates provided in #4, #5 and #6 above. There is a gap of a little over two years between your drums (about 25,000 difference in numbers / 11,500 drums per year = 2.2 years). The estimate that your drums are from 1975/1976 and 1978 is consistent.

9. I do not have enough information about the timing of the change in tom mounting hardware to use that piece of information to help.

Rick
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  #10  
Old 10-13-2010, 02:53 PM
AZBill AZBill is offline
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Default Re: Gretsch ID help needed

Holy crap, Rick! You've been busy and I appreciate all the info you're sharing here. With all the intel you offered, our estimate on mfg date is consistent with your estimate (earlier SN's). I look forward to getting a copy of your work, when it's complete.

Thanks again,


Bill
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