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  #11  
Old 05-07-2018, 07:00 AM
Gilnar Gilnar is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

The irregularities in size and centering etc. seem to me to be too small to be anything else than simple "mistakes" in the not-so-precise manufacturing process of that era.
I'm just guessing, though.
Looks like a beautiful cymbal.
Enjoy it!
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  #12  
Old 05-09-2018, 12:11 AM
vyacheslav vyacheslav is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

I bet that sounds great!

I have a 14" A from the 50's or 60's that weighs 570 grams. Still very thin, but yours is still 13% thinner!
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  #13  
Old 05-09-2018, 05:04 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumaholic View Post
Just for your information and for anyone else who cares, that's the 5th type they used since 1929.

Those "excellent timeline" folks like to pretend that they actually know what their talking about. Unfortunately they don't do any of their own research.
I'm often unsure just how to respond to these occasional attacks from Drumaholic. Is he being humorous with a twinkle in his eye? Is he being a troll? Is he helping the forum get more hits by setting up some sort of conflict which will bring in the viewers? Is he about to announce his book is coming out and wanting to sell more copies by undermining the reputation of other researchers?

Just for your information and anyone else who cares, I formally described and published 5 pre Trans stamps over two years ago. Drumaholic likes to pretend that he is the only one who could possibly know what he is talking about. Unfortunately he has added no new information since the existence of 5 types was already published.

You can be sure my pre Trans Stamp typology research is independent of Drumaholic because he still hasn't publicly described his five. You can't be sure whether he got some of his his types from me since my typology been out there to be copied. I suppose he'll just ask you to take his word for it that he invented everything, I do no research, and I just copied his work.

Drumaholic did really good pioneering work and I honor his contribution. Why can't he similarly acknowledge independent research is happening?
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #14  
Old 05-09-2018, 05:49 PM
steff steff is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

excellent observations! Great job by everyone!!

since when they were made could not yet know the trans stamps type, then "pre-trans stamp" does not make much logic sense, it looks like an eternally unidentified object, so why not call them "II stamp" ?? ^-^
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  #15  
Old 05-09-2018, 07:06 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steff View Post
excellent observations! Great job by everyone!!

since when they were made could not yet know the trans stamps type, then "pre-trans stamp" does not make much logic sense, it looks like an eternally unidentified object, so why not call them "II stamp" ?? ^-^
Funny you should mention naming. I reluctantly went with Pre Trans Stamp because so far as I could tell Drumaholic didn't formally name the earliest stamps. First Stamp seems to have been coined by Winnie of Hidehitters (who is also on Drumaholic's hate list) and I knew Drumaholic did not like that term. Then Bill Maley suggested that another specific stamp be called the Second Stamp and it was silly to call them both a First Stamp (as Winnie did) because they were different. You can read about this on my site.

I published the five types I had come across to support Drumaholic's contention that First and Second aren't the best naming choices. I've kept the details of the five Pre Trans Stamps off my main gallery for the same reason that I've kept the details of the four (possibly five) Trans Stamps off the main gallery page. I'm trying to keep things simple for beginners rather than get into the detail. Because First and Second were in established use I reluctantly used those terms at the upper level.

I don't have any strong attachment to what the names should be. I'm not a philatelist (stamp collector) and my interests are more in pricing research, cymbal morphology and its relationship to sound, and tracking specific models back in time. I reluctantly took on the task of creating objective identification details so that I could include stamp information in my statistical modelling. I thought others might find my methods useful, and that it would be useful to integrate the vintage information with the 1970s through to the present.
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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  #16  
Old 05-09-2018, 08:31 PM
steff steff is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

^^ I think First Stamp is unmistakable the Arabic logo is bold, then there is the "II Stamp" that the Arabic logo is thin and Zildjian is written regular, the lathe is the same to the First Stamp, finally the Trans Stamps with the Z are CO bold, and the hammering that brings a novelty compared to the first two,

at the level of sound First Stamp and II, they are the most A "Turkish" ever, even if very very far they have a vague taste of Old K

unfortunately there are no 18" or more of the first stamps, so Trans Stamp is always the most looked for ...

These are the main differences for the three stamps in my opinion

Last edited by steff; 05-09-2018 at 08:38 PM.
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  #17  
Old 05-09-2018, 09:26 PM
mlayton mlayton is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steff View Post

unfortunately there are no 18" or more of the first stamps
Steff

There are a few around. I've got an 18 1/8" First Stamp, a 18" Second Stamp and a 20" Second Stamp as well.

Mike
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  #18  
Old 05-10-2018, 12:09 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlayton View Post
Steff

There are a few around. I've got an 18 1/8" First Stamp, a 18" Second Stamp and a 20" Second Stamp as well.

Mike
And a 20" First Stamp turned up in late December 2017. A 22" Second Stamp turned up in March 2018. For a time it was looking like 18" was the largest for First Stamps and 20" for Second Stamps. Then the 20" First Stamp showed up followed by the 22" Second Stamp. I have pictures and full documentation on file if you would like to see them.

I have three 18" First Stamp and three 18" Second Stamp cymbals recorded in my database. Two of the 18" Second Stamp cymbals are the Swish model. The patent for the Swish was applied for on Feb 7, 1938 granted as US Patent 2189095 Feb 6, 1940. These sorts of associations between trademark stamps and other documentation helps correlate stamps and years, although who knows if a Swish with a First stamp will appear next week?
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For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here

Last edited by zenstat; 05-10-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-10-2018, 12:41 AM
mlayton mlayton is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

Steve

Do you have pricing data for the ones that you mentioned in your first paragraph in the post above, by any chance? Thanks as always...

Mike
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  #20  
Old 05-10-2018, 02:14 AM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Is this a 1930s custom made A Zildjian?

I don't have a sales price for the 22" cymbal. Just a photos and weight (2420g) from somebody wanting to identify it.

For the 20" the story is a little strange. It is reputed to be heavy (2960g). It was on Reverb asking $539 + $30 shipping

https://reverb.com/item/4130161-zild...30-s-brilliant

That listing ended apparently without a sale in Feb 2017.

The same cymbal later appeared in Italy (13-May-2017) at EUR650 and is still sitting there unsold a year later.

https://www.mercatinomusicale.com/mm...id5204300.html

So we really don't have much quality information on price from this. If everything is kosher it was purchased (a deal off Reverb at an unknown price) and shipped to Italy were it remains on offer for around $770. It is possible somebody was trying to make a fast buck by flipping, and it has turned into a slow buck. Who can say?
__________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert, but for every fact there is not necessarily an equal and opposite fact (Thomas Sowell, 1995 in The Vision of the Anointed)

Paiste 602/Sound Creation research click here
Which K Stamp? A DIY tool click here
Old K prices and weights click here
Avedis Zildjian gallery and timeline click here
Old A prices and weights click here
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