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  #11  
Old 10-06-2019, 08:05 PM
Drumwhacker Drumwhacker is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Thanks for your input!

I thought it looked good, has a few dings. I paid $610 with shipping.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2019, 09:04 PM
zenstat zenstat is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Thanks for the link. Nice looking.

What I'd be interested to know is why the seller says 1976. I've gone into the subject with my statistician hat on and documented plenty of cases where a 1976 doesn't mean manufacture date. It can mean many things:
  • it has a smudged date stamp which was interpreted as 1976
  • bought new in 1976 (which also means it could have been in stock for 5 years)
  • believed to be 1976 by association with something else like a kit
  • somebody told the seller it was 1976 but no first hand knowledge
  • this is the Nth owner and it is just a story being passed on

You get the idea. And BTW the current world record for time lag between manufacture date and sale new in a retail shop is for a cymbal. That record is about 30 years.

http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=53314

Most time lags are less than 5 years of course, but they are still a significant factor in interpreting the specific years which sellers sometimes claim.
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:08 PM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

One other common justification for a 1976 date estimate is that Rob Cook's original Ludwig dating chart showed a large range of serial numbers associated with that year. That could factor in on zenstat's third and fourth bullets above.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
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Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:11 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

I found this one on ebay. It's a 13 X 9 with granitone finish. The seller says it's from 1970/71 cause there is no serial # on the badge. Right away I can tell this is not from 70/71. The TC control is over top of the badge. If this was from 70/71 the TC would be where or next too the P1216 mount and NOT over the badge. Also the badge has the Registered R on it. As far as I know and KCDrumDad can correct me If I'm wrong. Serial Numberless badges from the early 70's didn't have the R on them.

Why do I bring this up?? Well I've been collecting serial Numbers of B/O badge Ludwig drums and where the TC's are placed on 12, 13, 14, & 15" Tom. Tom's with Tone Control NOT over top of the badge range from the first Serial # on the first B/O Badge to Serial # 1190000. The lowest serial # Number of a tom with the Tone Control Over the badge I have found so far is 1192070. If you go Richards book you will see that a serial number of 1192070 is around 1974. The drum in the pic below doesn't have a serial number but does have the TC over the badge and the Registered R on the badge which looks original to the drum. So I would say this tom is from 1974 and up.

Have I confused everyone yet. HAHA

Now looking at the badge on the snare in question and comparing it to what I just said. Is it possible it is from 1976.
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  #15  
Old 10-08-2019, 12:16 PM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumguy1988 View Post
I found this one on ebay. It's a 13 X 9 with granitone finish. The seller says it's from 1970/71 cause there is no serial # on the badge. Right away I can tell this is not from 70/71. The TC control is over top of the badge. If this was from 70/71 the TC would be where or next too the P1216 mount and NOT over the badge. Also the badge has the Registered R on it. As far as I know and KCDrumDad can correct me If I'm wrong. Serial Numberless badges from the early 70's didn't have the R on them.

Why do I bring this up?? Well I've been collecting serial Numbers of B/O badge Ludwig drums and where the TC's are placed on 12, 13, 14, & 15" Tom. Tom's with Tone Control NOT over top of the badge range from the first Serial # on the first B/O Badge to Serial # 1190000. The lowest serial # Number of a tom with the Tone Control Over the badge I have found so far is 1192070. If you go Richards book you will see that a serial number of 1192070 is around 1974. The drum in the pic below doesn't have a serial number but does have the TC over the badge and the Registered R on the badge which looks original to the drum. So I would say this tom is from 1974 and up.

Have I confused everyone yet. HAHA

Now looking at the badge on the snare in question and comparing it to what I just said. Is it possible it is from 1976.
I agree. The first version of the B/O badge did not have a circle R on it. These are seen with drums date stamped in the 1970-71 time period, both with and without serial numbers.

The circle R appears on some of the replica/fake badges, so one has to be careful when examining blank badges with the circle R to make sure that that are original to the drum and not replacements.

I do not have SN 1192070 on my list, but the lowest serial number with the tone control over the badge that I have is 1194476. I did not record the tone control location for several years, so it is difficult to nail down when the location was changed. Drumguy1988 has shared some of his information with me and everything looked consistent.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
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  #16  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:50 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDrumDad View Post
I agree. The first version of the B/O badge did not have a circle R on it. These are seen with drums date stamped in the 1970-71 time period, both with and without serial numbers.

The circle R appears on some of the replica/fake badges, so one has to be careful when examining blank badges with the circle R to make sure that that are original to the drum and not replacements.

I do not have SN 1192070 on my list, but the lowest serial number with the tone control over the badge that I have is 1194476. I did not record the tone control location for several years, so it is difficult to nail down when the location was changed. Drumguy1988 has shared some of his information with me and everything looked consistent.
I still have my list that I sent you years ago Richard. I'm just in the process of updating them. I will send them to you once that's done.
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  #17  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:11 AM
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumguy1988 View Post
I still have my list that I sent you years ago Richard. I'm just in the process of updating them. I will send them to you once that's done.
I look forward to it. Thanks.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
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  #18  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:51 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

I put this collage together of the Serial Numberless Registered R Badges. The first one is off of the snare in question. The second is the one I installed on my Floor Tom. The third is the one from the 13" tom I post earlier. And the fourth is a reproduction badge I purchased for a Replica Ludwig Snare I'm building out of a 6-ply Ludwig Shell.

You can see the difference between the Original badges and the repo. The USA on the right side is lower on the repo badge. And the Registered R sits higher. The rough area at the bottom of the repo badge is considerably different the originals. It's looks more etched than Brushed. So the other 3 are definitely Originals and NOT repo's.

I have a Theory on these Serial numberless Registered R are badges. We know Ludwig never used serial #'s between 140XXXX and 149XXXX. At least I've never seen one. The numbers stop somewhere in the 139XXXX and start again in the 150XXXX. I have 2 Numbers on my list that confirm that. The last number I have is 1396XXX and the first is 1505641. Is it possible these Serial Numberless Register R badges WERE produced between those 2 serial #'s??????????
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Last edited by Drumguy1988; 10-09-2019 at 01:04 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:11 PM
Drumguy1988 Drumguy1988 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

CHECK THIS OUT. I just found this snare on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-LUDWIG...8AAOSwAnxcfCyM

It appears there is no serial # on the badge but It does have the Registered R and the badge does look original and not a repo.
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:01 PM
OddBall OddBall is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig blue/olive non serial # badge question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumguy1988 View Post
CHECK THIS OUT. I just found this snare on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1976-LUDWIG...8AAOSwAnxcfCyM

It appears there is no serial # on the badge but It does have the Registered R and the badge does look original and not a repo.
The repro's have a darker olive, the snare in question has the right tint.
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